Reloading experts, I need help!

[saibot]

Experts-

I have a problem that I just can't figure out. I've been handloading for my (and a friend's) AR and having a very hard time extracting a cartridge once in battery, specifically if I DON'T fire it. I have to pull on the charging handle while slamming the butt against something to break it loose. I thought maybe the Lee full length/decapping die (and a RCBS X die) was sizing the base enough so I got a RCBS small base X die which has made no difference at all. I have a Dillon .223 case gauge and when I drop a cartridge into it, it sits just a little higher than the top edge. If I take a case that drops deep into the case gauge and resize it, it no longer drops all the way in and now sits a little higher than the top edge. What the heck is going on? Do the RCBS X dies do something bad to the shoulder of the cases? Per the instructions I have mandrel up and out of the way for the first use and have the die just touching the shell plate.

Just FYI, PMC/LC/Remington brass, Montana Gold 55g, 24.3 grains of A2230. Rock River Arms and S&W M&P AR15s.

Anyone have any ideas?

[cas]

Did you read the instructions?

Are the necks too long?

(Doesn't the brass need to be trimmed to a certain length first before you use the X die?)

[Joe4d]

is your over all length too long ? Try seating the bullet deeper

[saibot]

Did you read the instructions?

Are the necks too long?

(Doesn't the brass need to be trimmed to a certain length first before you use the X die?)

Cas-

Yes I trimmed as outlined in the instructions for the X die. Cases trimmed to 1.6800 and don't extend out of the case gauge.

Thanks

[saibot]

is your over all length too long ? Try seating the bullet deeper

Joe4d-

I typically seated to 2.2530, but have tried a little shorter and didn't notice a difference. When I do manage to get the cartridge out I don't see any evidence of the bullet contacting the lands. I could really mash them in there and try to see if it makes a difference, but given that the case stands high in the case gauge (the bullet just sticks out of the end and touches nothing) I'm thinking it's some kind of case deformity. Just don't know where...

Strange, eh?

Thanks!

[Joe4d]

Are you trying to crimp and seat in a single die ? This generally doesnt work, if the dies arnt exactly right you can have sholder problems, Picture this the bullet is crimped early but the seater is still pushing down causeing the shoulders to bulge or be set back slightly, back your crimp die all the way out and only seat, then crimp in a separate stage .

[saibot]

Are you trying to crimp and seat in a single die ? This generally doesnt work, if the dies arnt exactly right you can have sholder problems, Picture this the bullet is crimped early but the seater is still pushing down causeing the shoulders to bulge or be set back slightly, back your crimp die all the way out and only seat, then crimp in a separate stage .

Joe4d-

That is an outstanding suggestion! I am using separate dies (Lee seating die/ Lee factory crimp die) but I know you can use the seating die to taper crimp as well as seat and maybe it is doing that. I can try backing it out of the tool head and screwing down the seating adjustment to compensate. That should have the desired effect, right?

Thanks again!!!

[G-ManBart]

Are you trying to crimp and seat in a single die ? This generally doesnt work, if the dies arnt exactly right you can have sholder problems, Picture this the bullet is crimped early but the seater is still pushing down causeing the shoulders to bulge or be set back slightly, back your crimp die all the way out and only seat, then crimp in a separate stage .

Joe4d-

That is an outstanding suggestion! I am using separate dies (Lee seating die/ Lee factory crimp die) but I know you can use the seating die to taper crimp as well as seat and maybe it is doing that. I can try backing it out of the tool head and screwing down the seating adjustment to compensate. That should have the desired effect, right?

Thanks again!!!

This is why I don't like the seating/crimping combo dies....too much going on. Redding competition seating die and taper crimp die and you're set.

You want to be really careful about banging the butt of an AR on anything when it's loaded. The firing pin can make contact with the primer in a loaded cartridge that way. It would take one heck of a whack to make it go bang, but it still gives me the willies

Edited May 30, 2010 by G-ManBart

[saibot]

This is why I don't like the seating/crimping combo dies....too much going on. Redding competition seating die and taper crimp die and you're set.

You want to be really careful about banging the butt of an AR on anything when it's loaded. The firing pin can make contact with the primer in a loaded cartridge that way. It would take one heck of a whack to make it go bang, but it still gives me the willies

G-ManBart-

Oh believe me, it gives me and everyone around me the willies! Any suggestions on getting them out other than slamming the buttstock?

[twodownzero]

It sounds like your sizing die is not set correctly. A sized case must fit all the way into the case gauge (wipe any lube off first). This means below the top step and above the lower step. What you are describing thus far is a case that will not headspace correctly.

If not sized completely, the shoulders aren't being bumped back far enough and thus cases may not chamber.

It's not a small base die selection issue...it's a setting issue.

Edited May 30, 2010 by twodownzero

[saibot]

It sounds like your sizing die is not set correctly. A sized case must fit all the way into the case gauge (wipe any lube off first). This means below the top step and above the lower step. What you are describing thus far is a case that will not headspace correctly.

If not sized completely, the shoulders aren't being bumped back far enough and thus cases may not chamber.

It's not a small base die selection issue...it's a setting issue.

towdownzero-

Do you think I'm resizing too much? I can't go any further as the die already touches the shell plate on my 650. Incompatible die with this system?

Thanks!

[latech15]

Sounds like more of a crimping issue rather than a resizing issue. As others have said seating and cri

ping on one operation is a bad idea. I had the same problems trying to load ACP on a lee pro 1000. Wend to a Dillon seating and crimping separately fixed all the problems ( other than flocked brass, u die and lee FCD fixed that)

[twodownzero]

It sounds like your sizing die is not set correctly. A sized case must fit all the way into the case gauge (wipe any lube off first). This means below the top step and above the lower step. What you are describing thus far is a case that will not headspace correctly.

If not sized completely, the shoulders aren't being bumped back far enough and thus cases may not chamber.

It's not a small base die selection issue...it's a setting issue.

towdownzero-

Do you think I'm resizing too much? I can't go any further as the die already touches the shell plate on my 650. Incompatible die with this system?

Thanks!

Just crank it down more. The shell plate will move. If not you may have to remove some material from the bottom of the sizing die in the worst case scenario.

For our intents and purposes with rifles, if it won't fit in the case gauge, assume it'll never fit in your rifle.

Crimping, bullet depth, etc., is all irrelevant if it won't fit in the case gauge after sizing. That is step ONE.

[G-ManBart]

This is why I don't like the seating/crimping combo dies....too much going on. Redding competition seating die and taper crimp die and you're set.

You want to be really careful about banging the butt of an AR on anything when it's loaded. The firing pin can make contact with the primer in a loaded cartridge that way. It would take one heck of a whack to make it go bang, but it still gives me the willies

G-ManBart-

Oh believe me, it gives me and everyone around me the willies! Any suggestions on getting them out other than slamming the buttstock?

You can always try setting the butt on the ground, holding the spring loaded tab back with one hand and tapping on the other side of the charging handle with a rubber mallet or something else similar that's non-marking. R,

[Graham Smith]

I had the same problem when I first started doing .223 (earlier this year). In my case, it was because I was not fully sizing the case. After screwing the die down to touch the shell plate, screw it down just a tad more so that the handle "cams over". Second, make sure that you are doing a good job lubing the cases, or they will not go in all the way, or they will get stuck in the die. Last, make sure you clean the brass afterward or the residue left from the sizing can create a problem.

[saibot]

OK, I was able to screw down the sizing die a little more and it's touching the shell plate now. Can that damage the plate or press on a Dillon 650? A couple of test cases do go a little deeper into the case gauge, so maybe that will be enough. I'm also going to back out the seating die then make some test rounds and see how it goes then report back. Thanks all!

[saibot]

Well I made the changes you guys suggested; extended the resizing die, and adjusted the seating die so it doesn't do any crimping and so far that seems to have done it. I pressed out ~80 cartridges and randomly selected ~10 which all dropped deeper into the case gauge and I put each of the 10 into the rifle, released the bolt and each one ejected effortlessly with the charging handle. I'll take them all out to the range tomorrow and try them all without fear of an AD in my garage.

Just wanted to follow up and say thanks for all of the expert assistance!!!! It is very much appreciated!!

[calishootr]

sounds like it was a headspace issue, for me, justtouchingthe shellplate didnt work, and i ended up as some have said, at least a half turn if not more past the 'touching' shell plate part...its dropping in the guages just peachy with the dies cammed over, yeah and it beatsthe hell out ofthe bang on the gun to get it to eject...yikes with the AR's floating pin, that is scary...