Reasonable directions

[Skydiver]

I was going to tack on the end of thumb cocking the hammer of a gun while in the holster to discuss "reasonable directions" and "range commands", but I figured it would be better to start a new thread.

Directions other than range commands or safety warnings are not "reasonable." They're not even permitted. And under 8.6.4, you should offer a reshoot to a competitor if you cannot do your job as an RO without making comments other than the range commands.

Just exploring a couple ideas for discussion about "reasonable directions" and "range commands":

1) After the "Make Ready" command for the Melody Line classifier, the shooter if done preparing his weapon and just faces up range. Ho doesn't assume the start position with toes touching the rear fault line. Is it a reasonable direction to tell the shooter to move his toes to be touching? (Remember there is no such range command.) Or do you reissue the "Make Ready" command hoping the shooter will catch on? Or do you simple go on with the "Are You Ready", "Standby", and "Start Signal" commands and assess a procedural penalty at the end of the course of fire?

2) Similar to 1), after the "Make Ready" command on stage where start position is facing up range, the shooter is not facing uprange as clarified recently where feet, hips, shoulder, and head all have to be faced squarely uprange. What is the reasonable direction or range command to give the shooter?

3) A Single Stack or Production shooter walks up to the start position and you notice that one of his mag pouches is forward of his hip bone. Do you just move the shooter to open? Do you give an instruction that the mag pouch be moved back or removed?

4) So when you go to the chrono station and the CRO asks that you surrender your weapon for inspection and testing, is this a range command? Appendix C2, #44 seems to say Yes even though such a command is not listed in 8.3.

5) The Chrono CRO is charged with checking compliance with division requirements and one of which is the functioning of all safeties. While dry firing your weapon he notices that there is no arm movement to push up the firing pin block on your production gun. Is it reasonable for him to ask you field strip your gun to inspect that the firing pin block in still installed in your production gun?

6) At the end of a COF fire, the shooter finishes in a prone, kneeling, or sitting position. After the RO gives the "If finish, unload and show clear" command, is it reasonable for the RO to say "Stand up", and only after that point give the "If clear, hammer down and holster" command. Remember that interim commands are only legal for Standard Exercises or moving the shooter hot between stages (8.3.6.1)

[BritinUSA]

1. You can't start a competitor until they are in the correct position, so I think it's okay to tell them that.

2. Same as #1.

3. If it's the first stage of the match then tell them to fix it. If it's not the first stage then they are in Open.

[mactiger]

4,5, and 6: yes, yes/or move you to open, and possibly yes, if holstering in a prone position will cause the competitor to break the 90 and be disqualified. Paul answered your other questions.

Reasonable requests are just that, efforts to make the course safer, and should not be whatever the RO wants, as someone stated in the other thread.

Troy

[twodownzero]

The standard is not "reasonable directions," but "safety warnings."

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

Answers to your specific questions are in the rule book:

1.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written

stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand

erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A

competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect

start position was used must be required by a Range Official to

reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated

in Appendix E3.

(see 10.2.2, in the next quote, for the remedy for failure to comply)

2.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur-

rence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance).

3.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

4.

5.8.1.5 Match Officials reserve the right to conduct chronograph or

other tests on all and any ammunition, at any time, and a reason

need not be given.

5.

5.1.6 Handguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand

examination of a competitor’s handgun or related equipment, at any time,

to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable

or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the

match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

6. This is discretionary. It depends on whether "stand up" is a "safety warning" under 8.6.1. And for the record, the proper command is, "If YOU are finished, unload and show clear," not, "If finish[ed], unload and show clear."

Edited May 26, 2010 by twodownzero

[Steve J]

twodownzero, being tight-lipped and letting the shooter pay the price is fine at a Level II or III match or even at a Level I match with an experienced, but difficult shooter. It makes no sense with new and inexperienced shooters. The RO has to talk to them and explain what they obviously don't know.

[twodownzero]

twodownzero, being tight-lipped and letting the shooter pay the price is fine at a Level II or III match or even at a Level I match with an experienced, but difficult shooter. It makes no sense with new and inexperienced shooters. The RO has to talk to them and explain what they obviously don't know.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

It's amazing how many common contingencies are both covered by the rule book AND often solved in some manner contrary to the rules. Not only does the RO not have to say anything to them other than range commands, the rules demand that he do so unless the competitor requests assistance.

Few things irk me more than small talk during a course of fire or a failure to use the proper range commands. They are standardized for a reason and deviation from this is not safe.

Edited May 26, 2010 by twodownzero

[G-ManBart]

Few things irk me more than small talk during a course of fire or a failure to use the proper range commands. They are standardized for a reason and deviation from this is not safe.

That's only true in some situations, not all. Saying "load and make ready" versus the now correct "make ready" may not be proper, but it's not unsafe.

You seem to be fond of absolutes. Unfortunately, absolutes rarely work well with this sort of topic.

[Gary Stevens]

While I agree we should use the proper range commands, I also believe that treating shooters like you would like to be treated up to the point they won't let you is not a bad procedure.

If I can correct a shooters equipment before they shoot, then I will. Playing "gotcha" has no place in our sport.

Gary

[twodownzero]

Few things irk me more than small talk during a course of fire or a failure to use the proper range commands. They are standardized for a reason and deviation from this is not safe.

That's only true in some situations, not all. Saying "load and make ready" versus the now correct "make ready" may not be proper, but it's not unsafe.

You seem to be fond of absolutes. Unfortunately, absolutes rarely work well with this sort of topic.

You seem to be reading things that aren't there. I didn't say "For all available circumstances and in every conceivable fact pattern, deviation from the proper range commands is unsafe..."

Whether your fact pattern is unsafe may depend on if the shooter speaks English or not. There is no requirement to speak English in order to enjoy our sport. There is, however, a clear requirement that the shooter understand the range commands in 8.3, including "stop."

Whether your instructions that deviate from the range commands encourage or create an unsafe condition depends on the facts. Each deviation has that potential.

Saying "Load and Make Ready" might not be unsafe. It could be interference if the stage is an unloaded start.

I think as ROs, we should strive to be as professional as is practically possible. Included in that is learning and issuing the correct range commands to shooters.

[Skydiver]

And for the record, the proper command is, "If YOU are finished, unload and show clear," not, "If finish[ed], unload and show clear."

Thanks for the reminder!

My brain was clearly going faster than fingers could go... kinda like my shooting... I need to use the eyes to observe the typing and the shooting. :-)

[rvb]

what about directions to a competitor who is not the current shooter?

an example... as an RO, I asked a person to move back from the 180 as a competitor was going to turn and draw in his direction. He got kinda snotty, saying that I as RO couldn't tell him what to do, that the competitor couldn't draw until he was turned, etc. He was a few steps behind the 180, and I was only asking him to take a couple steps more backwards. DQ under 10.6.1 went through my mind ("failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official"), but I decided raising my blood pressure wasn't worth it and I could get on with life now knowing what kind of attitude he had; and I didn't want to mess up the current shooter by wasting time w/ the other competitor.

Would I have been wrong? That sure seems exactly what "reasonable directions from a Match Official" were meant to handle, to me. My goal behind the directions was his safety, and that seemed reasonable. Seems some here are saying I can only say "THE" words in the book? Days like that really make me hate picking up a timer.

-rvb

Edited May 26, 2010 by rvb

[twodownzero]

And for the record, the proper command is, "If YOU are finished, unload and show clear," not, "If finish[ed], unload and show clear."

Thanks for the reminder!

My brain was clearly going faster than fingers could go... kinda like my shooting... I need to use the eyes to observe the typing and the shooting. :-)

The only reason I mentioned that is that my instructor for the RO class was very clear that the word "You" is in there so that it is clear that you are speaking directly to the shooter. A lot of people like to use the 3rd person ("If the shooter is finished, unload..."), but the proper command is in the second person ("If YOU are finished...") because it sounds more direct and personal.

what about directions to a competitor who is not the current shooter?

an example... as an RO, I asked a person to move back from the 180 as a competitor was going to turn and draw in his direction. He got kinda snotty, saying that I as RO couldn't tell him what to do, that the competitor couldn't draw until he was turned, etc. He was a few steps behind the 180, and I was only asking him to take a couple steps more backwards. DQ under 10.6.1 went through my mind ("failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official"), but I decided raising my blood pressure wasn't worth it and I could get on with life now knowing what kind of attitude he had; and I didn't want to mess up the current shooter by wasting time w/ the other competitor.

Would I have been wrong? That sure seems exactly what "reasonable directions from a Match Official" were meant to handle, to me. My goal behind the directions was his safety, and that seemed reasonable. Seems some here are saying I can only say "THE" words in the book? Days like that really make me hate picking up a timer.

-rvb

Not only could you "tell him what to do," this is an instance where, at your option, you could either issue a procedural (8.6.2) or disqualify the person under 10.6.1 and/or 10.6.2.

This is something that the guy with the timer shouldn't be doing though (in my opinion). Let the guy with the clipboard handle it. The RO with the timer should be watching the gun, always.

Edited May 26, 2010 by twodownzero

[rvb]

This is something that the guy with the timer shouldn't be doing though (in my opinion). Let the guy with the clipboard handle it. The RO with the timer should be watching the gun, always.

Small local match, no squads just shotgun start... I may have had both timer and clipboard. And this happened before "make ready," as part of checking that the range was safe/reset before issuing "MR" command.

But I understand your point.

-rvb

[twodownzero]

This is something that the guy with the timer shouldn't be doing though (in my opinion). Let the guy with the clipboard handle it. The RO with the timer should be watching the gun, always.

Small local match, no squads just shotgun start... I may have had both timer and clipboard. And this happened before "make ready," as part of checking that the range was safe/reset before issuing "MR" command.

But I understand your point.

-rvb

Before the "make ready" command isn't part of the course of fire, so there is much more leeway there.

[G-ManBart]

You seem to be reading things that aren't there. I didn't say "For all available circumstances and in every conceivable fact pattern, deviation from the proper range commands is unsafe..." Actually, you did when you said it as an absolute "They are standardized for a reason and deviation from this is not safe." You didn't say may be unsafe, could be unsafe or anything like that...just a blanket statement that deviations are unsafe, which isn't necessarily true.

That's my last comment on it as I'm pretty sure all the original questions have been answered and I certainly can't match the knowledge of folks like George and Troy

Edited May 26, 2010 by G-ManBart

[mhs]

The standard is not "reasonable directions," but "safety warnings."

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

Answers to your specific questions are in the rule book:

1.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written

stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand

erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A

competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect

start position was used must be required by a Range Official to

reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated

in Appendix E3.

(see 10.2.2, in the next quote, for the remedy for failure to comply)

2.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur-

rence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance).

What about 8.3.1?

Edited May 26, 2010 by mhs