jimstc Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 (edited) I am loading 38 Super on my 650 today and am getting variances from 2.01 to 2.65 for the OAL. I am using Armscor and Federal brass.The brass has generally been fired less than 3 times. Question #2 moved to Stock/Limited guns forum. Edited January 14, 2004 by Erik Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor! One problem at a time, in the appropriate place. I'm going to split your post and put question #2 into the Stock/Limited guns forum. The data you have provided is, well, impossible. Perhaps you misplaced the decimal points? A .38 Super Auto cartridge should be somewhere between 1.23" (flat-point or JHP) and 1.26" (round nose FMJ) long. A .005" variation (plus or minus tolerance) from the desired OAL wouldn't be unusual not unacceptable. Do you mean you are getting 1.201" to 1.265" OAL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Erik,details ,details. Yes you are right I meant I am getting 1.201 to 1.265. Regarding the split of the question, my point is whether the problem is an OAL issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Well, let's tackle the source of the OAL variation here and whether it is causing the feeding trouble in the other thread. Do you have the right bullet seating stem in the die? For round nose FMJ and some JHP bullets with a radiused ogive, such as Zero's, you want the round nose seater that contacts the ogive. For flat nose and some truncated-cone shaped JHP bullets, such as Montana Gold's, you probably want the flat point seater. Did you have a case in each station with the shellplate up when you tightened down your dies? You have to do this at least for the sizing die. You should also do it with a long cartridge in the seating station when you tighten your bullet seating die. Do you notice any change in the ease or difficulty of operating the lever? All of the below are applicable... Are you using case lube? It smooths operation, taking out hitches of resistance, which results in more consistent OALs. Was the brass fired out of the same gun, at the same power factor? Same reason as above. Is the brass the same make and type? Again, same reason as above. Try separating your AP and Fed cases, loading them in distinct groups. Don't mix nickel and brass, either. With such a humongous variation, I'd look to the seater stem first and the die-tightening method second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 your not using STAR bullets are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Did you check for variations in bullet length,GEOMETRY, will affect overall length due to variance in contact point of bullet on seating die face. so there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 The bullet length shouldn't really matter. What matters is where the bullet contacts the seating die. If the seating die is perfectly flat, then there be be almost no variance in oal between rounds. If the seating dies is concaved and the geometry of the bullet tip varies, then huge variations in oal have been observed. The reason I question whether the bullets are STAR is that on multiple occasions with 2 different calibers, I have seen huge variations in the bullet tip geometry in the same box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggorloader Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'm a fanatic on OAL cause my nature get's wacked out when something doesn't give repeatable results. I just gotta fix it. I used to shoot Winchester bulk bullets both in 44 and 45 ACP cause I got them dirt cheap, and had nothing but problems holding OAL even within .015. I screwed around with the seating plugs shell plate, whatever and it drove me nuts. What also didn't make sense was I didn't have any problem at all holding virtual identical OAL when loading quality rifle bullets. I finally took a bunch of the bullets in to work and we put them up on an optical comparator and the bullet geometry varied alot even in the same bag or lot. They weren't all over the map but rather in groupings. That's why I could get it going consistant and then it was gone. Either the flat bullet seat plug wasn't shallow enough or the tips were to dinged up coming bulk, for it to work either. Anyway, I got a hold of a huge amount of Nosler FMJ and HP bullets real cheap and the problem went completely away. As long as I followed the setup procedures as these other guys said it's like it stays almost dead on. I' m not recomending Nosler nor downgrading Winchester just for me it was the bullets. Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 JHP's are the way to go in Super IMHO-- almost no comp leading and more consistent OAL. What's not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jspruance Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'm with David Olhasso on this one (I wrote a reply on the Stock/Limited guns forum). I had the same problem with Star bullets. Lots of variation in OAL, velocity and accuracy. I would get between .020 and .050 variation in OAL. It was because the nose of the bullets had so much variation. I only noticed it on the round nose bullets. JFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 Yes they are Star bullets. My office is 15 minutes from the factory and that is all I have been buying. Looks like you have diagnosed the problem. Thanks for the help. What bullets do you recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mover480 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 00000000000000000000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 That really is a huge variation. I agree with the above posts and would like to add this; I've seen variations in COL when loading with my 550 if I do not have all stations full at the time. Usually that would only occur at the end of the loading session or when I'm toying with the dies and/or powder charge. Now I make sure that there's a case in each station at all times to avoid that minor deviation. Dave's reply probably nailed it though, watch out for differences in bullet shape (profile), it will change the COL due to where the bullet contacts the die. (sorry for the redundancy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 You mean the problem isn't one of the items on that huge laundry list I typed? <sigh> Win some, lose some. re the bullets: garbage in, garbage out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 I have had succes with all the brands below. Each was consistent in geometry and in weight. Hornady HAPs or XTPs. Montany Gold. Remington 115s. (Not the 180s. the rem 180 jhp has toooo huge a hollow point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 Thanks David. I've got a bunch of the Remington 115's and will be trying them tonight. I also ordered some Ranier 130's as I wanted to see how a heavier bullet shoots. Any feedback on the Ranier bullets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 sorry, I have never used a Ranier bullet. For major super loads I use 125gr HAP. For minor super steel loads I use the 115 remington. But then again, I don't shoot that much open or limited anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 David, I loaded some Rem 115's and shot four mags this morning. They fed flawlessly and were consistent OAL. Thanks for solving my problem. Erik, I also separated my brass by manufacturer and used case lube. That made the reloading easier and faster. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Jimstc, You might be better off with jacketed if you are loading 38 Super to make major. Ranier , or any other plated bullet, is happier at low velocities. YMMV. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Travis, I am loading the 38 super to barely make minor as I use this gun for Steel and IDPA. Sounds like I am okay for that use. However, I am trying the Ranier in my Edge 40 caliber. What do you think of that application, this time just trying to make major with Titegroup? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTheBlack Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Bullseye shooters really like the Star 185gr in 45ACP. They just modify their seating dies so that it makes contact on the flat perimeter instead of on the nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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