Club match ROs

[Steve Anderson]

If a club match has a designated RO for each squad, is that RO still his own RO while shooting?

OR, does he give the RO responsibility to the same guy he gives the timer to?

More specific...is the squad RO responsible (ethically or legally) for pointing out penalties during his own run that are not caught by the temporary RO?

SA

[Ron Ankeny]

Interesting question. I would think when an RO hands the timer off, the responsibility goes along with it. If the regular RO is shooting, he/she has no more obligation to point out errors or omissions than any other shooter. Look at it this way, if I was the regular RO, when I shoot, every miss would officially be a double. :-)

[shred]

We use the squad RO plan all the time-- the squad signup sheet has slots for at least 2 RO-qualified people on each squad and they trade off RO-ing as needed to stay reasonably rested.  Any disputes get sent to the MD.

[Flexmoney]

My take is that the person with the timer is in total control...s/he is the CRO.  S/he makes the calls.  The person with the clipboard is the assisting RO.

Other shooters in the squad are match support.  They should pretty much keep their noses out of the scoring.  Now, if the RO's are inexperienced and are just missing stuff, then the experienced shooter can/should step up to point some things out.

Everybody's score should accurately reflect their shooting...by the book.  I know I don't want any more, or any less, points than I have earned.

[Steve Anderson]

So...does an experienced shooter have an obligation to point out penalties missed by a less experienced club RO?

I would say yes, and I would point out a missed penalty on my run, as I want an accurate score that reflects my current ability.

Somewhat more direct:

If the squad RO is shooting, and the temp RO misses an obvious (to the squad) penalty, is the shooter (the squad RO) a cheater for not pointing it out? OR, does the benefit go to the shooter?

SA

[Ron Ankeny]

Steve:

In reading between the lines in your first post, I kind of thought the problem was whether or not the regular RO should fess up.

There isn't anything in the rules that requires the competitor to bring a penalty to the RO's attention. This is a question of ethics more than rules.

The main RO is not a "cheater" in the legalistic sense  for not bringing the penalty to the less experienced RO's attention. If the guy/gal did what he/she did in order to "win" then they might be a bit of a scoundrel (or scum). If they did it as a "training experience" for the fledgling RO then who knows? You would have to ask the person directly.

[Flexmoney]

Steve,

I take it that you were shooting at a club that was new to you (maybe you didn't know all the shooters in your squad?).  The RO that you had was the shooter.  Somebody else filled in on the timer while the RO shoot.  The RO had a mike of NS that didn't get scored.

A couple of questions...

- Was the shooter being dishonest?  

- Was somebody helped, while others lost out (he got a better match score than he should have...maybe beating someone that had their misses scored).

- How experienced was the RO?

Everybody makes mistakes, we're all human.  I would like to think that the ladies and gentlemen in our game would want their score to reflect their shooting...good or bad.

I am sure you were wondering what you should do in that situation.  If I were pasting targets...I would stop at the target in question and stand there until they had scored the other targets.  I'd then ask the shooter and the RO if they saw the NS (or whatever) on this target.

On the flip-side of that...it isn't my call (as the paster) to make.  I'll point out something that may have been missed...then it is up to the RO.  Now...if the RO is cheating for the shooter, that needs to be brought to the attention of the match director.

I often get guys asking me for my opinion (while I am pasting) on a borderline call of some sort.  I like to tell them that, as the RO, it is their call to make.  I might point out that a bullet just has to touch a line to score, not break the line...and that an overlay would likely have that bullet touching...and that if you have to look at it that close, it is probably in..."but, it is your call".

Hope my ramblings have helped in some way.

[Shooter Grrl]

Etiquette in our sport says that only the shooter should point out errors.  If a "paster" or other competitor does it, it could be cause for a procedural and definitely causes tension between the shooter and the "pointer".

Whether the shooter points it or not is entirely up to them!  A number of people in our sport feel that the human error factor is part of the game.

I however, learned my lesson at the Nationals.  Our squad followed the Super Squad and every one of them owned up to the misses, no shoots, hard cover misses - some even after the scoresheet had been signed!  I want a reputation like that

[vluc]

While the responsibility is, in my opinion, on whoever is RO'ing, there is still the ethical aspect to it, especially if the "true" RO sees a mistake has been made.

While a bit of drift, i pointed out a procedural on myself that was not caught by the established SO on a recent IDPA stage.  It was low light, I ejected a partially full mag and did not retain it before engaging the next array.  I had a wonderful score, excellent time, down -1 for the 6 targets, but saw I did wrong and pointed it out.

So, ethics should win out, IMHO.  If you can't call an honest run on yourself, how can you do it on someone else?  

Or do the breaks only apply to the RO and his friends....interesting post!

[Steve Anderson]

Extra shot on a virginia count stage to make up a mike on a previous string. Nothing amiss on the targets, had to be noticed during the run.  Timer was not checked for extra shots.

I'm resolving this in my head by assuming the shooter meant to take the penalty instead of the mike and when the temp RO didn't assess the penalty he just accepted the benefit going to the shooter.

BTW, it was the match classifier.

SA

[jkmccoy]

I'm sorry all of you guys can't experience USPSA shooting with the people I shoot with. Many of our local shooters are certified RO's and work a lot of the major matches in the area. I've never heard any hint of conflict in pointing out penalties, nor have I ever heard anyone trying to avoid penalties that they earned.

Ethics clearly demand that a shooter point out a penalty if the RO's miss it. Ethics also demand that other shooters point out the penalty (and that the shooter accept it) if the RO's miss it.

If you shot the penalty...'fess up. Take the score and quit whining. When people won't take the score they earned it will quit being fun. Fortunately, those people don't last long out here.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy