Super Squad Routine at Steel Challenge

[rgkeller]

I was told by a range officer working the recent Steel Challenge in Florida that the standard routine among many on the Super Squad was, after MR, to insert a loaded magazine into the pistol and then thumb cock the hammer and pull the trigger on each target before racking a round into the chamber and holstering.

This procedure was OKd by senior match staff.

This routine seems to me to call for a DQ under 10.5.9 considering the definitions of "Loading" and "Loaded Firearm."

Perhaps SC is not conducted under USPSA rules?

Edited March 30, 2010 by rgkeller

[mhs]

I was told by a range officer working the recent Steel Challenge in Florida that the standard routine among many on the Super Squad was, after MR, to insert a loaded magazine into the pistol and then thumb cock the hammer and pull the trigger on each target before racking a round into the chamber and holstering.

This procedure was OKd by senior match staff.

This routine seems to me to call for a DQ under 10.5.9 considering the definitions of "Loading" and "Loaded Firearm."

Perhaps SC is not conducted under USPSA rules?

I don't think 10.5.9 applies in this case, since the gun is already loaded when the finger enters the trigger guard.

[mactiger]

I was told by a range officer working the recent Steel Challenge in Florida that the standard routine among many on the Super Squad was, after MR, to insert a loaded magazine into the pistol and then thumb cock the hammer and pull the trigger on each target before racking a round into the chamber and holstering.

This procedure was OKd by senior match staff.

This routine seems to me to call for a DQ under 10.5.9 considering the definitions of "Loading" and "Loaded Firearm."

Perhaps SC is not conducted under USPSA rules?

It's not. Steel Challenge has it's own set of rules.

Edited March 30, 2010 by mactiger

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

Perhaps SC is not conducted under USPSA rules?

It's not. Steel Challenge has it's own set of rules.

Absolutely correct ... SC has its own rule book. I just reviewed my copy and I see no prohibition against what you saw. The shooter will, however, be DQ'd if the gun goes bang in the process.

[G-ManBart]

Yikes, Supersquad or not, I'm not sure I like that practice!

[Flyin40]

Yikes, Supersquad or not, I'm not sure I like that practice!

I would guess they want the exact feeling of a loaded gun when they pull the trigger when preparing for a stage. SC is not like Uspsa. 5 plates so one bad shot will cost you big. Nothing is being done that is unsafe. Gun is pointed downrange into the plate/berm. If they feel it helps them and it doesn't violate any safety rules there is little that can be said.

Flyin

[Skydiver]

I must be missing something, even if Steel Challenge were operating under USPSA rules, I still don't see why this would be a DQ.

Rule 10.5.9 is about having the finger in the trigger guard while loading, unloading, or reloading and provisions for pistol models without a decocker.

The shooter is allowed by 8.7.1 to take a sight picture. As far as I can tell, 8.7.1 doesn't specify that gun must be unloaded. As far as I know, you are allowed to have your finger in the trigger guard when you are aiming at a target as per 8.5.1.

Yes, the practice of putting the magazine in first, but not chambering a round and then taking a sight picture and pulling the trigger makes me nervous. I'd rather they do all their sight pictures and dry firing before putting in a magazine.

What am I missing here that would make this a DQ? Unsafe gun handling under 10.5 in general rather than something specific?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who when I give the "Make Ready" command:

1) with their unloaded gun, draw, aim at a target, and put their finger in the trigger guard?

2) with their unloaded gun, draw, rack the slide, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

3) with their unloaded Glock, rack the slide while in the holster, draw, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who in a multiple string stage, after firing their first string and given the "prepare for your next string" command take another sight picture and put their finger in the trigger guard with the safety engaged?

[rgkeller]

I was told by a range officer working the recent Steel Challenge in Florida that the standard routine among many on the Super Squad was, after MR, to insert a loaded magazine into the pistol and then thumb cock the hammer and pull the trigger on each target before racking a round into the chamber and holstering.

This procedure was OKd by senior match staff.

This routine seems to me to call for a DQ under 10.5.9 considering the definitions of "Loading" and "Loaded Firearm."

Perhaps SC is not conducted under USPSA rules?

It's not. Steel Challenge has it's own set of rules.

Is this procedure OK in a USPSA match?

[rgkeller]

Yikes, Supersquad or not, I'm not sure I like that practice!

I would guess they want the exact feeling of a loaded gun when they pull the trigger when preparing for a stage. SC is not like Uspsa. 5 plates so one bad shot will cost you big. Nothing is being done that is unsafe. Gun is pointed downrange into the plate/berm. If they feel it helps them and it doesn't violate any safety rules there is little that can be said.

Flyin

Perhaps next some will want to take out one round after each trigger pull to get the absolute exact feel.

[rgkeller]

I must be missing something, even if Steel Challenge were operating under USPSA rules, I still don't see why this would be a DQ.

Rule 10.5.9 is about having the finger in the trigger guard while loading, unloading, or reloading and provisions for pistol models without a decocker.

The shooter is allowed by 8.7.1 to take a sight picture. As far as I can tell, 8.7.1 doesn't specify that gun must be unloaded. As far as I know, you are allowed to have your finger in the trigger guard when you are aiming at a target as per 8.5.1.

Yes, the practice of putting the magazine in first, but not chambering a round and then taking a sight picture and pulling the trigger makes me nervous. I'd rather they do all their sight pictures and dry firing before putting in a magazine.

What am I missing here that would make this a DQ? Unsafe gun handling under 10.5 in general rather than something specific?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who when I give the "Make Ready" command:

1) with their unloaded gun, draw, aim at a target, and put their finger in the trigger guard?

2) with their unloaded gun, draw, rack the slide, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

3) with their unloaded Glock, rack the slide while in the holster, draw, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who in a multiple string stage, after firing their first string and given the "prepare for your next string" command take another sight picture and put their finger in the trigger guard with the safety engaged?

It seems to me that inserting a magazine into the pistol is part and parcel of the process of loading the firearm per the definition of "Loading." Under 10.5.9 the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard while loading. But maybe that's just me.

[mhs]

I must be missing something, even if Steel Challenge were operating under USPSA rules, I still don't see why this would be a DQ.

Rule 10.5.9 is about having the finger in the trigger guard while loading, unloading, or reloading and provisions for pistol models without a decocker.

The shooter is allowed by 8.7.1 to take a sight picture. As far as I can tell, 8.7.1 doesn't specify that gun must be unloaded. As far as I know, you are allowed to have your finger in the trigger guard when you are aiming at a target as per 8.5.1.

Yes, the practice of putting the magazine in first, but not chambering a round and then taking a sight picture and pulling the trigger makes me nervous. I'd rather they do all their sight pictures and dry firing before putting in a magazine.

What am I missing here that would make this a DQ? Unsafe gun handling under 10.5 in general rather than something specific?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who when I give the "Make Ready" command:

1) with their unloaded gun, draw, aim at a target, and put their finger in the trigger guard?

2) with their unloaded gun, draw, rack the slide, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

3) with their unloaded Glock, rack the slide while in the holster, draw, aim at a target, and pull the trigger?

Along the same lines, should I have been DQ-ing people over the years who in a multiple string stage, after firing their first string and given the "prepare for your next string" command take another sight picture and put their finger in the trigger guard with the safety engaged?

It seems to me that inserting a magazine into the pistol is part and parcel of the process of loading the firearm per the definition of "Loading." Under 10.5.9 the finger cannot be inside the trigger guard while loading. But maybe that's just me.

After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.

[rgkeller]

>>After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.<<

So having one's finger inside the trigger guard while racking the slide is, then, OK?

[Steve J]

>>After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.<<

So having one's finger inside the trigger guard while racking the slide is, then, OK?

No, not while racking the slide. Magazine inserted, manually cocking the hammer and dry firing at the targets is safe. Racking the slide with the finger in the trigger guard is not.

[rgkeller]

>>After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.<<

So having one's finger inside the trigger guard while racking the slide is, then, OK?

No, not while racking the slide. Magazine inserted, manually cocking the hammer and dry firing at the targets is safe. Racking the slide with the finger in the trigger guard is not.

So having the finger inside the trigger guard while inserting the magazine is OK?

[mhs]

>>After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.<<

So having one's finger inside the trigger guard while racking the slide is, then, OK?

No, not while racking the slide. Magazine inserted, manually cocking the hammer and dry firing at the targets is safe. Racking the slide with the finger in the trigger guard is not.

So having the finger inside the trigger guard while inserting the magazine is OK?

This is more interesting than I thought it would be. The finger in the trigger guard while inserting a loaded mag is clearly in violation of 8.4.1. Putting in a loaded mag, and then putting your finger in the trigger guard and racking the slide doesn't violate any rule I can see. The gun is loaded when the mag is inserted (A3). Chambering a round when your finger is in the trigger guard is not expressly prohibited.

[AlamoShooter]

I am not a Super squad shooter , but I have shot a few Steel Challenge matches. not all the Super Squad guys dry fire on every target. It is not a "Routine" And any other squad can do the same thing.

I like to take a practice warm-up draw with a loaded mag in the gun/ not loaded chamber.

The Idea that that is an (unsafe act) border lines on hysteria. If a shooter does not feel safe doing it thin don't do it, If you host a match and don't like it =don't allow it.

But it is not unsafe

I do not think it is a good Idea for a first time shooter , but even if they did fire a round onto a target, = It would be one of the most safe DQ's I have ever seen.

[rgkeller]

I am not a Super squad shooter , but I have shot a few Steel Challenge matches. not all the Super Squad guys dry fire on every target. It is not a "Routine" And any other squad can do the same thing.

I like to take a practice warm-up draw with a loaded mag in the gun/ not loaded chamber.

The Idea that that is an (unsafe act) border lines on hysteria. If a shooter does not feel safe doing it thin don't do it, If you host a match and don't like it =don't allow it.

But it is not unsafe

I do not think it is a good Idea for a first time shooter , but even if they did fire a round onto a target, = It would be one of the most safe DQ's I have ever seen.

Do you believe that the practice is permitted under USPSA rules?

[rgkeller]

>>After you put the mag in the gun is loaded. If you put your finger into the trigger guard after inserting the mag it is after the process of loading.<<

So having one's finger inside the trigger guard while racking the slide is, then, OK?

No, not while racking the slide. Magazine inserted, manually cocking the hammer and dry firing at the targets is safe. Racking the slide with the finger in the trigger guard is not.

So having the finger inside the trigger guard while inserting the magazine is OK?

This is more interesting than I thought it would be. The finger in the trigger guard while inserting a loaded mag is clearly in violation of 8.4.1. Putting in a loaded mag, and then putting your finger in the trigger guard and racking the slide doesn't violate any rule I can see. The gun is loaded when the mag is inserted (A3). Chambering a round when your finger is in the trigger guard is not expressly prohibited.

That does seem to be the way the rules read. I doubt that the NROI wants them to so read.

Edited March 30, 2010 by rgkeller

[Chris Keen]

I am not a Super squad shooter , but I have shot a few Steel Challenge matches. not all the Super Squad guys dry fire on every target. It is not a "Routine" And any other squad can do the same thing.

I like to take a practice warm-up draw with a loaded mag in the gun/ not loaded chamber.

The Idea that that is an (unsafe act) border lines on hysteria. If a shooter does not feel safe doing it thin don't do it, If you host a match and don't like it =don't allow it.

But it is not unsafe

I do not think it is a good Idea for a first time shooter , but even if they did fire a round onto a target, = It would be one of the most safe DQ's I have ever seen.

Do you believe that the practice is permitted under USPSA rules?

Yes. I can see nothing wrong with it.

[AlamoShooter]

I know/ we know USPSA rules , and I know that USPSA is not the "Unnamed God" of safety .

Some shooting events think that reloads are unsafe and do not allow them in the National events. That does not make reloads unsafe for other shooting sports.

Its seems as though the thread has a slant to paint it as unsafe. Its is different than USPSA . Steel Challenge also has a rim-fire division that has a start with the gun in shooter' hands - gun on or off safe loaded. = that is not USPSA allowed= And some shooters will take a sight picture with a loaded gun on the first target after they move to the second position on the Showdown stage. they normally ask the RO ahead of time. And I have never seen it denied.

Is that unsafe ? I don't think so , is it USPSA =no

Steel Challenge is different , just like the Single Action division of S.C. = the shooter can wear two loaded guns

If the Rules change I will learn them and play by them

Jamie Foote

I do think any shooter that does not know when the gun is loaded and unloaded is not thinking clearly and is acting unsafe. = as in firing a shot unintentionally

Edited March 30, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[rgkeller]

If the best shooters do something, then we can be certain that others will follow.

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss and ultimately determine whether or not the described practice conformed to USPSA rules.

[Nik Habicht]

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss and ultimately determine whether or not the described practice conformed to USPSA rules.

And that's irrelevant -- since the Steel Challenge uses its own rules, not the USPSA rules......

If USPSA were to acquire ICORE, SASS, IDPA, or GSSF, I'd expect those sport to run under their own rulebooks too.....

[AlamoShooter]

If the best shooters do something, then we can be certain that others will follow.

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss and ultimately determine whether or not the described practice conformed to USPSA rules.

The Single Action rule is one of the biggest from USPSA , and the Rim-fire.

One of the Rule pushers that will happen bet-tween runs is that - After the shooter hits the stop plate some will turn back to the first plate for the next run- take a sight picture and thin -re-holster the gun for the next run.- As an RO - or if /when the match director observes this. nothing is said. = what could you say?

Its a trick most have not thought of , I have did it a few times if I was not happy with how my first shot went. =Is it gaming? yes , is it OK by the rules of S.C. =yes

In USPSA for a stage with more than one string the shooter can do the same thing.

I know its a just a "Trick" to play with the thoughts in the brain, and it does not really help with a better next run. just like dry firring on every target.

In the 10 world shoot events I have shot in I have seen less than ten shooters dry fire on every target with an Auto. I will normally take one dry fire on the first target and thin maybe the once on the longer target. If a Monkey jumps on the trigger. I may take one more to knock it off. You gotta keep that Monkey off the trigger.

Edited March 30, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[rgkeller]

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss and ultimately determine whether or not the described practice conformed to USPSA rules.

And that's irrelevant -- since the Steel Challenge uses its own rules, not the USPSA rules......

If USPSA were to acquire ICORE, SASS, IDPA, or GSSF, I'd expect those sport to run under their own rulebooks too.....

It won't be irrelevant when this "routine" shows up at a USPSA match.

Should we wait?

[rgkeller]

[in the 10 world shoot events I have shot in I have seen less than ten shooters dry fire on every target with an Auto. I will normally take one dry fire on the first target and thin maybe the once on the longer target. If a Monkey jumps on the trigger. I may take one more to knock it off.

Perhaps this is the reason.

From the IPSC Handgun Rules

"8.7.3. When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded

firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify

that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting

sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one

procedural penalty per occurrence."