Lodaing for my .38 Super is far more complicated than I thought!

[nYdGeo]

Everything matters when reloading, primers, brass and projectiles. In my experience and with regards to ammo, the powder & bullet weight make by far the biggest difference in how the gun shoots. I have everything worked out, but I'm still searching for a new powder. I'm also having difficulty finding the type of data I seek by searching the forums. The majority of the open-class shooters that I know seem to have strayed from the logical pursuit of 'the biggest charge of a clean burning, high gas volume, reasonable pressure powder that will fit in the case behind the lightest bullet that the pistol will shoot accurately' in their open guns. With the right powder selection this formula has always worked well. However, new technologies emerge, new discoveries are made with items that have been around forever, and there also seems to be a trend with the priority moving away from the flatter shooting combo and towards the softer shooting.

I know what powder Max Michel Jr. (and Sr. for that matter) prefer and use, which is the very popular, 'how the heck does such a fast burning powder work in an open gun' IMR7625. Back in the late 90's I was in Todd Jarrett's squad at an Area 4 match. He was even so kind as to make an LED shield for my C-More using a paster, and got me to switch from an 18lb recoil spring (I know, hahaha!) to a 14lb which was what was optimal for that design at that time. He was shooting a cone-comped pistol with two, nicely nozzled ports through the top of the slide/cone/barrel. He won that match beautifully, and if I recall correctly he was using 7625 way back then, long before I ever heard of anyone else using it in an open gun.

But, I have tried great 7625 loads (7.7gr w/125gr FMJ) in my pistol and although they are soft and reasonably flat, they are not the flat shooters that I'm looking for. The N350 loads are a hair less soft, but a hair more flat. All of this has me back looking mostly for info regarding using big charges of #7, HS6/540, or other like powders, especially behind 115gr projectiles. If anyone has related info for .38 Super please let me know. I'm interested in alternatives as well, but I'm far less interested in soft shooting as I am flat shooting. There has to be a load that can make my STI shoot as flat shooting as my old, custom EAA did, but I'm really surprised that its so difficult to find.

If 571 was still available I'd be using it. It was a little faster/higher enrgy than #7 (used to be), I found it to be a clean shooting powder, and it worked an open gun very, very well. I used to compress 10.0 under a 124gr or 10.5gr under a 115gr at 1.160" for a 178PF in my EGW-built EAA open pistol back in the late 90's. When I ordered the compensator from Fred Craig he said, '10-grains of 571 behind a 124'...it was that easy. It was hell on brass so I looked, but I never found a better 9x21 major load. Those loads in that pistol shot flatter than 7625 loads (168PF) or N350 loads (166PF) shoot today in my .38 Super STI that's in my profile pic. I hope to find a powder that can make my STI shoot that flat, and don't have the budget to play around with 8-10 powders to find one that's close.

So far the best intel I have appears to be around 10.5gr of HS6/540 behind a 115gr, but this is my first time inquiring. I'm searching the forums still, but most of the more current data I'm finding is for 9mm Major, and/or .38 Super loads using smaller charges of faster powders that i believe will shoot softer and not flatter. So, if anyone is shooting a similarly configured .38 Super and like me, values the flattest possible shooting combo, and wouldn't mind sharing powder/load information, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you for your time. DVC

[G-ManBart]

Around 10.5gr of VV N105 with a MG 115gr JHP is extremely flat and extremely soft in my guns (average around 173PF), and in those of several friends (at least four or five others). Some guns will need a bit more, others a bit less, but something in this general ballpark usually works out just right. Super takes a tenth or two more than Supercomp, but other than that, no real differences. It's probably the most expensive powder anybody is using in Open, but I'm happy to pay it for the way it shoots and the fact that it's probably the safest powder for doing what we're doing...heck, VV lists factory loads up to 190PF with a 147gr XTP, so there's little chance of hurting anything with a 115-125gr bullet. R,

[Darrell]

I'm running 10.0 of N105 now with 124 JHP. Got the load from James Louque. Was running 8.0 of 7625 with 121 IFP and 7.6 with 124 JHP I have 4 popple holes in the barrel. Roy Schmit built the gun and that was the loads he recommended. I find I have less dot bounce with N105, but it tears up my brass. I'll be loading Super Comp instead of Super because I'm having a 9mm barrel and comp fitted to the gun for shooting steel and Nicks matches, and I can switch out the barrel for USPSA matches. Your gun looks like one of Roy's build also. I must know you from local matches. I'm also a Tanfoglio shooter (Limited 9 and .40. Switched to CZ Shadow for production this year.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Darrell

[GrumpyOne]

Around 10.5gr of VV N105 with a MG 115gr JHP is extremely flat and extremely soft in my guns (average around 173PF), and in those of several friends (at least four or five others). Some guns will need a bit more, others a bit less, but something in this general ballpark usually works out just right. Super takes a tenth or two more than Supercomp, but other than that, no real differences. It's probably the most expensive powder anybody is using in Open, but I'm happy to pay it for the way it shoots and the fact that it's probably the safest powder for doing what we're doing...heck, VV lists factory loads up to 190PF with a 147gr XTP, so there's little chance of hurting anything with a 115-125gr bullet. R,

+1,000 I got my load data from Bart. I'm shooting 10.2 of VV N105 with a MG 115 JHP @ 1.235. Very soft, nice dot tracking, clean, a bit loud, but who cares, the way it works! Stock STI Trubor.

Edited March 24, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[CocoBolo]

I didn't see the gun details, assuming its a run of the mill TruBore or GM 38 Super etc G-Man is right on with his N105. I use AA#7 it is not quite as flat as N105 but it seems to have less straight back recoil. Its dirty but cheap. I would suggest starting at about 11.2gr of AA#7 with a 115gr. Benny Hill has a video demo of one of his guns running 12.2gr of AA#7 http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/images/Open_fire.wmv. Start low work up and crono, 12.2 is a little scary to me. My load with a 125gr is 10.5gr at 1.260 which is too long but it works. Now I think my old gun shoots pretty flat

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582 just click download movie.

A lot can be done with recoil springs, trading flip for recoil etc. I run a 10# because I am a Recoil-aphobic. I don't mind a little flip it keeps me awake while shooting.

[VegasOPM]

I am more concerned about flat than soft too. My load is 9.0gr of 4756 under either a 121gr or a 124gr MG with small rifle primers. It makes 171pf out of my hybricomp gun and 173 out of my buddy's non-hybricomp (with 121's). It is pretty energetic, but extremely flat. The powder is a little dirty, but not too bad- and cheap.

[nYdGeo]

I'm running 10.0 of N105 now with 124 JHP. Got the load from James Louque. Was running 8.0 of 7625 with 121 IFP and 7.6 with 124 JHP I have 4 popple holes in the barrel. Roy Schmit built the gun and that was the loads he recommended. I find I have less dot bounce with N105, but it tears up my brass. I'll be loading Super Comp instead of Super because I'm having a 9mm barrel and comp fitted to the gun for shooting steel and Nicks matches, and I can switch out the barrel for USPSA matches. Your gun looks like one of Roy's build also. I must know you from local matches. I'm also a Tanfoglio shooter (Limited 9 and .40. Switched to CZ Shadow for production this year.

Darrell, you're right; we must have crossed paths! Wow, I haven't seen James Louque in probably 12-14 years, but he was quite a shooter! I still see his brother from time to time at local matches...I think usually at Amite, but can't be sure.

N105 is a powder that I'm considering; reasonably clean, reasonably soft and way flat is what I hear. I've also read a few posts from folks that reported that huge loads of #7 behind a 115 still shoots reasonably soft and very flat. On the other hand, I keep reading where folks say that #7 is a filthy powder, but as I recall it if you're using a light bullet/huge charge major load and remember to crimp your bullets good and tight, it may not be as clean as N350, but it certainly wasn't filthy. Now I hear that during my 10-year absence from the sport, AA changed the formula for #7...so I have no idea. I wish that I could find more open shooters using #7 for more data.

Thanks for the input, and see you at a local match soon!

[nYdGeo]

I didn't see the gun details, assuming its a run of the mill TruBore or GM 38 Super etc G-Man is right on with his N105. I use AA#7 it is not quite as flat as N105 but it seems to have less straight back recoil. Its dirty but cheap. I would suggest starting at about 11.2gr of AA#7 with a 115gr. Benny Hill has a video demo of one of his guns running 12.2gr of AA#7 http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/images/Open_fire.wmv. Start low work up and crono, 12.2 is a little scary to me. My load with a 125gr is 10.5gr at 1.260 which is too long but it works. Now I think my old gun shoots pretty flat

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582 just click download movie.

A lot can be done with recoil springs, trading flip for recoil etc. I run a 10# because I am a Recoil-aphobic. I don't mind a little flip it keeps me awake while shooting.

CoCoBolo, the gun info is in my signature:

New 2003 STI Competitor (sat in safe for 6-years)

Slide lightened from 12.5oz to 9.5oz

Two 3/16" ports in barrel (through slide, similar to Max Michel's)

17lb hammer spring, 8lb var recoil spring

You're one of the guys I've been looking for using #7. Thank you for that information!

[AlamoShooter]

I have only been loading 38 super for 9 years and 11 months = a few days. most every load is a compromise of accuracy - shoot-ability - economy and making the gun last a long time. I am more likely to take the bump to save wear on the gun.

If you find the perfect load ..... you are not challenging your self much with the gun.

[CocoBolo]

I didn't see the gun details, assuming its a run of the mill TruBore or GM 38 Super etc G-Man is right on with his N105. I use AA#7 it is not quite as flat as N105 but it seems to have less straight back recoil. Its dirty but cheap. I would suggest starting at about 11.2gr of AA#7 with a 115gr. Benny Hill has a video demo of one of his guns running 12.2gr of AA#7 http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/images/Open_fire.wmv. Start low work up and crono, 12.2 is a little scary to me. My load with a 125gr is 10.5gr at 1.260 which is too long but it works. Now I think my old gun shoots pretty flat

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582 just click download movie.

A lot can be done with recoil springs, trading flip for recoil etc. I run a 10# because I am a Recoil-aphobic. I don't mind a little flip it keeps me awake while shooting.

CoCoBolo, the gun info is in my signature:

New 2003 STI Competitor (sat in safe for 6-years)

Slide lightened from 12.5oz to 9.5oz

Two 3/16" ports in barrel (through slide, similar to Max Michel's)

17lb hammer spring, 8lb var recoil spring

You're one of the guys I've been looking for using #7. Thank you for that information!

Ok now with the gun details its a little easier. Try the N105 first, you say you don't mind recoil so it will get you as flat as possible with your equipment. I have a Competitor, it may be Older than Alamo's firt load it has the bull barrel with the screw on comp, yours might have a Trubor. The TruBore is an improvment in recepricating weight. I don't want to start a fire storm here but my other gun which I dearly love is a std barrel with cone an about the same slide weight 10 oz. There is a major difference in the feel of a bull versus a cone comped gun, which feel you like may differ but I prefer the cone comped gun. Since my old competitor has a screw on and it was plenty too heavey and old school I put a Bedell Titanium on it and this improved the feel as well as the balance and pointability of the gun. I think your on the right track if you have the old school comp and or the TruBore from that era, it needs a butt load of gas to work and N105 or AA#7 has plenty. The newer more efficient comps work good with the popular powders but they work even better with these gassey powders, of course its all subjective opinion based on the most un-reliable source the human perception, but that's all I have to work with.

[CenTX]

I am more concerned about flat than soft too. My load is 9.0gr of 4756 under either a 121gr or a 124gr MG with small rifle primers. It makes 171pf out of my hybricomp gun and 173 out of my buddy's non-hybricomp (with 121's). It is pretty energetic, but extremely flat. The powder is a little dirty, but not too bad- and cheap.

I use the same load with a 125. Out of a Dawson mini-stroker, no popple holes and got 178pf at the Gator in 2008. Seems soft and flat. 4756 does vary from lot to lot and is affected by temp.

[nYdGeo]

I didn't see the gun details, assuming its a run of the mill TruBore or GM 38 Super etc G-Man is right on with his N105. I use AA#7 it is not quite as flat as N105 but it seems to have less straight back recoil. Its dirty but cheap. I would suggest starting at about 11.2gr of AA#7 with a 115gr. Benny Hill has a video demo of one of his guns running 12.2gr of AA#7 http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/images/Open_fire.wmv. Start low work up and crono, 12.2 is a little scary to me. My load with a 125gr is 10.5gr at 1.260 which is too long but it works. Now I think my old gun shoots pretty flat

http://www.sashooter.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=582 just click download movie.

A lot can be done with recoil springs, trading flip for recoil etc. I run a 10# because I am a Recoil-aphobic. I don't mind a little flip it keeps me awake while shooting.

CoCoBolo, the gun info is in my signature:

New 2003 STI Competitor (sat in safe for 6-years)

Slide lightened from 12.5oz to 9.5oz

Two 3/16" ports in barrel (through slide, similar to Max Michel's)

17lb hammer spring, 8lb var recoil spring

You're one of the guys I've been looking for using #7. Thank you for that information!

Ok now with the gun details its a little easier. Try the N105 first, you say you don't mind recoil so it will get you as flat as possible with your equipment. I have a Competitor, it may be Older than Alamo's firt load it has the bull barrel with the screw on comp, yours might have a Trubor. The TruBore is an improvment in recepricating weight. I don't want to start a fire storm here but my other gun which I dearly love is a std barrel with cone an about the same slide weight 10 oz. There is a major difference in the feel of a bull versus a cone comped gun, which feel you like may differ but I prefer the cone comped gun. Since my old competitor has a screw on and it was plenty too heavey and old school I put a Bedell Titanium on it and this improved the feel as well as the balance and pointability of the gun. I think your on the right track if you have the old school comp and or the TruBore from that era, it needs a butt load of gas to work and N105 or AA#7 has plenty. The newer more efficient comps work good with the popular powders but they work even better with these gassey powders, of course its all subjective opinion based on the most un-reliable source the human perception, but that's all I have to work with.

Yep, mine is a pre-trubor, screw-on, heavy steel comp. I keep toying with the idea of a Bedell, or even one of the super-light steel ones. Either would be far lighted than the hunk of steel on there now. Thanks again for the input from everyone.