George Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The future of USPSA 3 gun shooting is being re-forged as we speak folks. I spent the weekend shooting a 3 gun and a pistol match in Reno and I picked up some pretty solid scuttlebutt there. It looks like the 2004 3 gun nationals will consist of all multi-gun stages including a number where all three weapons are utilized. No single gun stages! I repeat, No Single Gun Stages!! WooHoo, WooHoo, WooHoo! Evidently a new scoring system is also being worked on and some big changes in the way USPSA 3 gun is scored are in the offing for the future. Monte Leveaux is the Area 1 section coordinator and the MD for the 3 gun nationals and he is looking for volunteers who want to pitch in and work the 3 gun nationals. If you are interested you can contact him at nvwhitewater@charter.net Monte is also holding a monthly 3 gun match in Reno and you can get in on the future of USPSA 3 gun shooting by attending these matches and helping him de-bug his plans for the upcoming 3 gun nationals. Here is a thread with a little more info on these monthly 3 gun matches. WNPL Monthly 3 Gun Matches BTW, I found out that the Reno Rodeo is over the same dates as the 3 gun nats and if you aren't gonna stay at the match hotel (I believe it is the Western Village in Sparks) you had better start making reservations now. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old john Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Sounds like the 3 gun nationals in NC. What are the rifle stages like? Longest and shortest shots? See you there. Old John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Oh joy, multigun stages, where the winning hit factor is about 1.1000. Maybe not with a new scoring system. I wonder if we get to know what it is before the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Here is what I heard, verbatim. Monte told me that Michael Voigt has authorized him to run all multi-gun stages at the 2004 3 gun nationals. I asked about scoring and Monte said that a way to handle this was being worked on by USPSA. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Erik brings up a pretty good point...multi-gun stages often have a low hit-factor (maybe not the 1.1hf that Erik mentioned though ). We shoot lots of multi-gun stages at a local match...but we mix things up a bit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Erik brings up a pretty good point...multi-gun stages often have a low hit-factor I did not hear anything specific other than the verbatim quote from Monte that I put in my previous post, but I kinda get the feeling that the term "hit factor" might not be relevant to discussing USPSA 3 gun scoring at some point in the future. I personally feel (without any actual hard evidence) that the addition of a scoped rifle sub-division is only the start of some changes for the better in USPSA 3 gun. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 George, That might be cool. I think, though, the point Erik was making was that lots of stages with with all 3-gun often means that there is more handling and moving...less shooting. I think he was hoping for some variety and balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Hi Kyle, If the stages I shot up at Reno this last weekend are any indication of the stage design style that we will see at the 3 gun nats, I don't think this will be an issue. The stages Monte Leveaux designed featured mucho shooting without a lot of transition hassles. All of the stages we shot had the weapon transitions laid out so that immediately after clearing one gun you were right into the next shooting within a step or two. I have seen more movement without shooting required at recent local pistol matches I have been to. The stages were for the most part, quick, intense, and unforgiving of poor gunhandling skills if you wanted to walk away with a good score. This is exactly what I think three gun shooting should be about, gear changing under pressure, and the stressing of multiple skills at once. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 The challenge with mulit-gun stages is the time involved in staging and then clearing the guns talking a lot time to get a squad though the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 In adding to this multi-gun talk I have to say that the gun handling at the SWAT match went really well and without mishap. It involved running with a hot rifle slung on you back while engaging pistol target and the holstering a hot pistol and going prone with the rifle. No AD's or problems with that one. Crawling on your belly under netting with a hot shotgun and hot holstered pistol also came off without a hitch. Most of the holsters at that match were duty rigs or something like a Bladetech so that did help. If the USPSA did the holster test first then they may be able to trust this type of stuff. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 There was hot weapon retention and re-use within some of the multi-gun stages at the MGM IronMan and the RM3G last year and there were no problems at those matches either. Somehow I just don't see it happening in USPSA matches for now though. I checked out the 2004 IPSC rifle, pistol & shotgun rules published on the USPSA site and here is what I found: 6.1.4 in the 2004 IPSC rifle rules are seemingly worded so as to exclude multi-gun stages by stating that each match shall include only one type of firearm. 8.5.2 in the 2004 IPSC handgun rules specifically does allow the hot re-holstering of a handgun during a course of fire as long as it is put into the proper ready state for it's action type prior to re-holstering. 5.1.9 in the 2004 IPSC handgun rules is the only place I find anything that says more than one gun cannot be used within a course of fire, and even then this only prohibits two "pistols" at once being used, or carried (BTW, this is listed as a DQ offense if anyone remembers Rhino's confession thread). This rule would also seem to prohibit stages with a match supplied pistol like a snubby or similar to be used at some point within the course of fire. Anyone else see anything in any published rules that say you shoot a little pistol then holster a hot handgun, shoot a long gun, discard the long gun and then transition back to the pistol within a USPSA course of fire? Or is this just another one of those we've never done it before so we can't do it now things? -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 What would help on multigun stages is to follow the Voigt method: don't require unloading of the gun being grounded. No problem as long as the stage has a barrel pointing to the side berm where the competitor and RO won't move near its muzzle path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Geoff, what the hell is that Avatar? I can't make it out. Maybe its to simple for my now 40 year old eyes, as of Monday, to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Multigun doesn't have to mean all 3. Any combo will do. As for the time to load and unload the competetor, we have at times taken a page from the Cowboy Action shooters and have used a "preload bench". That way the on deck shooter is ready to go when he is called. Really cuts down on time and in one day matches almost a nessecity!! I really agree with Mike Voight about not unloading the gun "left " behind. SMM3G does this way too much and has cause a few DQs that weren't really justified imo. We at RM3G do it the Voight way and haven't had a single problem. Also give some thought to the preload table It works! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 You're right Kurt preloading is the only way to go. At many matches when there was no clear instuction not to, many squads take it upon themselves to do this and really cuts the time down, mostly for shotguns. Is Mike ok with leaving a hot gun uprange? At a recent match a new person through they were helping and picked up the competitors grounded rifle while the rest of us were down range scoring targets. Not a good situation, fortunately the rifle was open and empty. I think requiring the gun to be empty is the best idea, I don't care if you rack it or shoot it empty, gun open or closed as long as it is empty. If you come back and pick it up and a round comes out, your gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 TMC: I really don't know if Mike is OK with that or not. I haven't heared it called that befor but for context of the Forum I used it that way. We have done this for years, and it is always grounded in a safe direction. YES the guy shouldn't have touched it!!! This is part of the ROs responsibility to convey to the shooters! NO TOUCHY!!! But you do bring up a valid concern! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Yeah, the chamber empty thing is probably best if there is any chance that someone will do something like that. The clearing practices Monte is using at his monthly matches are at least sensible in that the competitor is not required to leave the bolt or slide locked back, but is just responsible for clearing it before dumping it. I like Kurts idea's about hot weapon handling, clearing and such (from other discussions), but I feel that it's going to take a big temperature drop in hell before that happens in USPSA. At least we got tactical scope and multi-gun happening. That's pretty big stuff on it's own Now all we have to do is fix the scoring and recognize he-man. Monte was also specifying the new one sight picture only at one target rule and having all shotguns come to the line with magazine tube filled after a pre-load under supervision. Monte also specified an empty chamber with mag inserted start for all guns on the 3 gun stages. This seemed to cut down on competitor prep time a bit also. I think Monte Leveaux is aware of most of the potential pitfalls and is working hard to sort them out at his monthly matches before the nationals, but more input is always better. If anyone has any good input for Monte, I am certain he would love to hear from you (see my first post for his contact info), or even better yet, if you are out west, come to one of his monthly 3 gun matches and check it out for yourself. -- Regards,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 If you want to ground a hot gun it is eay enough to assign a person from the squad to stay with the weapon unti it is cleared by the shooter/RO. This job is assigned along with taping, etc. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I think holstering the pistol or putting the rifle on safe and slinging it should be allowed too, but I may be crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Blue perhaps, but not crazy!! We love to make them take it along!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 The way I see it, if a dozen or even two dozen people in a shooting class can do it all at the same time and not have any problems, a single shooter with a dedicated RO should be able to handle such things without any problems either. That's what slings and holsters are for!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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