Equipment Pot-stirring

[B.J. Norris]

I have no problems with minor, yes it would be nice to be scored major sometimes(like when I start hosing). I go about shooting minor the same way as if I was shooting Major, too fast. I've shot minor L10 and it didn't work out too well, so I stick to Production.

[Thread Drift Mode On.]

Another thing that gets me going is only Juniors that shoot Open get notice. Am I as an A class Production Junior, any less of a shooter then an A class Open Junior just because I don't shoot Open? Only Juniors that shoot Open get a shot at the Junior WS team,  why? We (Juniors) should all get a chance for the WS team no matter what division you choose to shoot. A topic for the Feb BOD meeting maybe...... While I would like to go Open at some point, with just getting my A card, I think "Why go Open when I just made A production in less than 2 years?" I would also like to go to the next World Shoot in '05, but only Juniors that shoot Open are picked for the team. If there are any other Juniors out there, Id like to hear your take on it.

[Thread Drift Mode Off]

There, I feel much better.

[mcginnes]

I shoot Major as well and as fast as I shoot Minor. I just get fewer points when I shoot Minor. I think I read is some guys book somewhere that the amount of recoil really doesn't matter...What was his name? Brian something I think.

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Quote: from Flexmoney on 11:24 am on Nov. 15, 2002

Now...if you wanted to make a plea for the B-hits in minor to be scored as 4 points instead of 3...I might be able to get behind that idea.  

---

I think that's the better solution. Deal.

(Edited by mcginnes at 11:37 am on Nov. 15, 2002)

[Mistral404]

I really enjoy shooting minor.  I have a 9mm BHP which is a joy to shoot.  I also shoot a STI Trojan .45.  Since the geometry of both guns is significantly different, I do shoot them at different speeds.

The kicker is that I can reduce the .45 power factor to just make major and it then becomes just about the same as the 9mm.  .  Started out with the 9mm but all my qualifications have been with the .45.

The real kicker is that speed is more important than accuracy.  So do away with the minor v major distinction, since speed is more important in the long run.  

[Jake Di Vita]

"The real kicker is that speed is more important than accuracy.  So do away with the minor v major distinction, since speed is more important in the long run."

In the long run they are both just as important as the other.

[gmshtr]

Doing away with Production would the ultimate dumb idea.  Why do away with the one division that is the most popular with the most important shooter.....the new C , D, or U classer who goes to the club matches and pays the membership dues!  These people are the future of the sport.  

Limited is still the big dog division.  Even with it's shooters being divided into Limited 10 and Production, Limited numbers are still competitive with Open at the major matches.  

In short, Limited 10 should be changed to Single Stack Division (high caps don't necessarily have the advantage...ask Robbie after the FGNs) and Revolver Class should be done away with.  If shooters are that dedicated to use a Revolver, they're proabably ICORE members anyway.  Hell, they have there own Nationals!  This would also do away with these stupid stage restrictions and let the stage designers make better stages.  Just my $0.02

[rkgsmith]

Since we're all talking, why not just abolish the current power-factor all together. Set some mininum caliber rules and go shooting.  It would eliminate all the problems at the " Chrono " area. (and free those guys up for shooting). Let anybody buy factory ammo and shoot, and eliminate some scoring  problems. Let's face it, the top shooters will still be beating us no matter what the power-factor rules are. Let's make a few less rules, and shoot a few more rounds.

[Hawker]

Keep the Revolver Class. It's the only fun wheelgun shooting alot of us have. CASS meets are too few and far between and not for everyone.

Combine L-10 and Production. There is alot of redundancy here.

Drop the "Minor" power factor for 9mm. USPSA is not really SD oriented anymore. If anyone should be using minor power factors, it should be the IDPA and of course, they don't.

Hawker

[Flexmoney]

IDPA not shoot minor???

[Duane Thomas]

Nope. In IDPA there's no Major/Minor scoring, just a minimum power floor to be shooting in the match at all - 165,000 for .45 ACP, 125,000 for everything else. The bullet holes all count the same no matter what caliber inflicted them.

[Flexmoney]

hmmm...I thought IDPA was tactical...wimpy gamers.  

[Hawker]

Tactical?

Another loosely used term to describe Navy Seal Wannabees, SWAT, or Spec Ops dreamers about a subject they know nothing of. This term is mostly used by the "Gun Shop Commandos" who buy every trick item they can for their guns, but would never invest in any real formal training. I see them at the range all the time. Most can hardly even keep the hits on the paper at 10 yards, let alone an A hit.

Sorry...I just had to jump on the use of that term. It's a pet peeve.

As for the revolver advice...that's a bunch! I'm looking forward to competing with it. I know there are alot of guys that would like to see this division go away.. but, hey...why don't you pick up a revolver and have a go at it.  If you do... you'll probably see your trigger control and sighting skills get better when you go back to your flat guns.

The response to the IDPA question is correct. No major/minor. Just a power floor.

Thanks again!

[Ron Ankeny]

Hawker:

I shot a revolver for 25 years before changing over to a 1911 pistol. In my PPC days I shot Master class. I also did pretty fair in NRA Action Pistol (Master) and the defunct National Shooter's League (Top 20). I know what it is like to shoot a wheel gun and shoot it well.  

The fact is, IPSC really isn't set up that well for revolver shooters. I have a tough enough time trying to get the clubs in the area to be single stack friendly and abide by the 8 round rule. It is too much to expect shooters to make courses revolver friendly. It just isn't going to happen.

I think it is great that you want to give revolver a go and I wish you all the best. Just don't expect people to offer up a lot of support or sympathy if course design doen't fit your shooting platform.

[Duane Thomas]

"hmmm...I thought IDPA was tactical...wimpy gamers."

Actually, all kidding aside, the lack of a power factor, just a power floor, is one of the things I really like about IDPA. The idea of Major/Minor scoring is a relic of a time when we believed (a) handguns are much more powerful than we now know to be the case, and ( there are great differences in effectiveness between the various calibers. These days we know they're all about the same, and none of them any great shakes.

[Flexmoney]

Let's not confuse power factor with caliber.  Big difference there.

If I ever want to stop something with a handgun, I hope that I have a bit more juice than a 130pf.

[IPSC CHIK1]

Production class could just as well be called Entry Level class.  of the pistols used, only the glock is used by anyone after they have shot for a while. it quickly becomes evident to the users of double action pistols (with the possible exception of the Para LDA), that double action is a HUGE  handicap. yes, there are shooters who can make them sing, buy it IS the shooter, not the pistol. Every shooter who excels with a double action, does better with a 1911 pattern pistol. just look at match results.

as for LTD vs LTD10, so what? the magazine hi cap ban sun sets in 2004 and with the republicans holding both houses and the white house you can kiss that law good bye.

Sharon Anne L 2387

[Jake Di Vita]

"Production class could just as well be called Entry Level class.  of the pistols used, only the glock is used by anyone after they have shot for a while. it quickly becomes evident to the users of double action pistols (with the possible exception of the Para LDA), that double action is a HUGE  handicap. yes, there are shooters who can make them sing, buy it IS the shooter, not the pistol. Every shooter who excels with a double action, does better with a 1911 pattern pistol. just look at match results. "

I've been shooting Production ever since I started shooting IPSC and haven't shot a Glock. The double action is not a huge handicap. Even if it were a huge handicap like you were talking about, how much would it matter in a match? You figure an average match having 5 stages with 125-130 rounds. Double action shots account for less than 5% of total shots fired. After shooting a Beretta for well over a year, if you suddenly threw a 1911 in my hands I wouldn't do nearly as good with it. I can't speak for everyone, but it takes me at least 1000 rounds for a decent platform transition.

I hope you didn't mean to imply "beginner" class when you said entry level class, but that's what I got from it. I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't call TGO, Todd, Dave, or Ernest a beginner.

Don't mean to flame, but I get in a heated discussion about this at least once a week. It's a big pet peeve of mine.

[IPSC CHIK1]

again i say, it is the shooter, not the gun, or as the saying goes, the singer, not the song

Sharon Anne L 2387

[Flexmoney]

"it quickly becomes evident to the users of double action pistols (with the possible exception of the Para LDA), that double action is a HUGE  handicap.'

You can't have it both ways...is the gun the handicap or is it the shooter???

(this is pot-stirring, right?)

[Patrick Sweeney]

"If you want to win you have to shoot a Glock" is heard here, too.  As our equine friend pointed out, it matters little.  We get new shooters asking if they need to buy a $150 speed rig to get a faster draw.  I tell them to do the match.

Five stages, 135 rounds (our match sunday) and as a new shooter your total time is going to be on the order of three to four minutes.  Is shaving ten seconds off your draw going to help that much?

Ditto the trigger.  Its going to be DA for a total of five shots, and you can make them all up.  Is ten seconds going to make any difference?

[Duane Thomas]

Decades ago, Jeff Cooper pointed out there is NO difference in first shot speed between SA auto, DA auto, and DA revolver. In every case, the time it takes to pull the trigger is less than the time it takes to move the gun to eye level to fire the first shot. Back when I fired a SIG P228 at most matches, I won my fair share.

I remember going to Mas Ayoob's LFI-2 class. One of the drills had shooters firing at 4" ciricles as 7 yards, from the draw. They started with everyone at the class - about 40 people - all up on the line. At the start buzzer, we all drew and fired. Everyone who missed the circle had to step off the line. They did that a few times until we had few enough shooters left (those who weren't missing) they could tell who got off their shot last. The shooter who got off his/her shot last, whether they hit or not, had to step off the line.

In short order it's winnowed down to three people still up there, me with my SIG P228, a guy with a 1911 .45, and another with a Glock 17L. That's DA, SA and Safe Action all running head-to-head. And there we stayed for quite awhile, run after run - because we all refused to miss, and we were getting our shots off so close together, they couldn't pick one out as being last. It sounded like this: "Shooters ready? Stand by....BOOM!!" Three guns sound as one. "Well, I couldn't tell who was last. I guess we'll have to do it again!" Finally I pulled a shot, and the guy with the 1911 won it all, but the point is that a DA auto can run with the "short trigger" autos regards first shot speed and accuracy - with a good DA auto shooter behind the gun, of course.

[2alpha]

My experience has been that the double action guns are just as fast as single action on easy shots. On harder shots like a us popper at 25 yds or head shot the single action is faster. There are exceptions of course, Jerry M doesn't have any problems with double action on hard shots. In general though double action guns are harder to learn to shoot at a high level.

I'd like to see Production be an entry level division. Seems like about half the shooters are "cherry pickers", acomplished shooters that compete in Production just for an easy win. I know that it's not easy to win Production at bigger matches and am not diss'n TGO for shooting Production there.  I don't know what the answer is but for one thing I don't think we should recognize Production at Area and above matchs if we really want it to be an entry level division.

[Flexmoney]

I don't know, 2alpha, I kinda think the Production ranks are growing...and with that, the skill level of Production shooters.

You make a good point about the cherry-pickers.  I am in hope that that issue will go away as the Production ranks come of age.

(we have some good Production shooters in our area and they got good shooting Production)

[Duane Thomas]

I don't know if I'd say "cherry-pickers." Truth be told, anyone can shoot in any division they want, and it's none of our business. There are a lot of experienced shooters out there who are kind of the "purists of the sport" (as Lisa Munson called them) who love the idea of Production division. They want to get back to shooting matches with a gun they'd actually carry, and have a carry weight trigger on the thing, etc. And if someone who's been shooting for years can outshoot someone who's just starting, even when they're both firing similar guns....well, that's just reality.

[rmills]

It's time for Open 10 division. The same logic that created Limited 10 division should apply to Open 10 division. There is no guarantee that if you purchase a new STI or SVI that there WILL be someone who has hi-cap mags to sell to you. To aquire mags people are breaking the law and buying hi-cap replacement tubes and building mags. WHy would anyone who shoots in Open divison be against Open 10? Let everyone have an opportunity to compete where they want to. In regards to all of the negative comment about Production division, why? Production divison allows an arena for pistols that most of the population owns. Let's give these peaople a place where they can bring their DA pistols and compete against other DA pistols without having to worry about "Gee, unless I buy a $2000 gun, I'll never score in the top 10% of the matches I go to". I have shot Open and Limited for 10 years with $2000 Race guns but now I shoot Production because its something different and interesting. As most would hate to admit it, it IS the shooter and not the pistol. Just watch Armando Valdes or David Sevigney.

My thoughts....................

[Duane Thomas]

Actually I'd love to see Open-10. I think the single-stack, compensated, iron sighted, hot medium bore autos that Robbie and Brian popularized 20+ years ago are fascinating handguns. But it'll never happen. In two years we'll have our high cap mags back.

I kind of wonder what will happen in USPSA and IDPA then. USPSA, I'm sure, will change its Production rules to come into accordance with IPSC, i.e. they'll remove the 10 round limit. But in IDPA, so much of the sport is built around the 10 round mag limit which levels the playing field between the various divisions. How will they justify the 10 round capacity restriction in ESP and SSP when the average guy can go down to the local gunshop and buy a Glock 17 with 17-round mags?