Clays vs Universal Clays for .45

[docatru]

I have loaded 2000 rounds of .45 200gr LSWC with Clays. Like it a whole lot, it's clean, economical, accurate.

Can't find Clays locally or at Powder Valley, but Universal Clays is available.

Knowing that I'll have to change load recipes is there any up or downside to switching to Universal Clays?

Thanks,

DOC

[paul gilman]

I have found that universal is to slow for lead in 45 and does not burn clean and SD is higher

[TerryO]

Clays is the way to go. I'm sure Powder Valley will have some in soon. This is the reason I purchase large containers and reorder before I run out. I just checked and Gamaliel's has it in all sizes. http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/home.php?cat=1170

Terry

[Jman]

Just in case.

Solo 1000 looks to be a real good 45 ACP powder.

4.8 grains under a 200gr LSWC

WLPP or Fed 150 primer

1.190 COL

You'll need to chrono it to confirm your PF

Jim

[parisite]

Alliant has copied Clays to a tee and they call it Clay Dot. Just thought I would mention in case you can find it.

[Bongo Boy]

Knowing that I'll have to change load recipes is there any up or downside to switching to Universal Clays?

Doc, I don't have a LOT of experience yet with Universal, but maybe 1,000 rds in a few different work-ups, so far. At this point, I don't think you can get Universal to do what Clays does, and vice versa. My impression is that Clays won't push anything to high velocities without going to high pressures, and Universal won't be as happy at lower pressures/velocities. These are impressions, mostly. Here's what I've done so far with lead bullets:

6.7gr Universal with 185gr LHP, CCI Lg Pistol Magnum primers

High: 1,78

Low: 951

Avg: 1,021

SD: 32

1.16" OAL This load exceeds maximum published as near as I can tell.

6.2gr Universal, 200gr RNFP, CCI Lg Pistol Magnum

High: 974

Low: 785

Avg: 877

SD: 44

With standard Lg Pistol primers I've been shooting a lot of these last loads, and I like 'em a lot for simulating 185gr Gold Dots. They honestly feel about the same, despite the fact they're slower, heavier bullets. The first load above, about dead nuts for the 185gr Gold Dot ballistics, feels a lot hotter to me.

You can see the SD's are nothing impressive, but I'll say the second of the two loads is accurate enough for me--I'm getting a single hole at 7 yards freestyle, and while it ain't bullseye shooting it's close enough for government work.

Hodgdon shows 5.8gr as the minimum with a 200gr cast LSWC at 889 fps, so it may be tough to get the powder-puffs that come easily with Clays.

I see no downside for sure, but was surprised to see more smoke with Universal than with Clays. Still, a 20% velocity variation or more seems sketchy to me, and I'll be trying something else when this can is burned up.

Also, I note that I can get the same performance as that second Universal load above with just under the maximum published load of Clays...about 4.2 gr.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[Rico567]

The saga of Hodgdon's "C" family of powders is one that should never have begun. Especially in the reloading industry, to market a family of powders incorporating the same name is -to use the clinical term- "nuts." I call them Clays (the fastest powder, and a go-to for me for shotgun and .45 ACP), International (somewhat slower, I don't use it), and Universal, the slowest and a fantastic powder for .40 and .45 Colt (think "U"niversal = "U"nique, but much cleaner).

I view Universal as unsuitable for .45 ACP.

[njl]

If you're happy with Clays, you don't want Universal. Look for WST or Solo1000 as "similar" substitutes.

[Steve RA]

I use Clays - 4.5 gr. with a 200 gr LSWC and it averages 900 fps.

[tgford58]

I run Clays at 4.6 grains under a Precision Delta 230 FMJRN. I like the powder allot. I have runs some Universal and found it much dirtier and problematic getting major without pressure indications. I've settled on Clays for .45 and .40 though little data exists for the .40. I don't know where you are located but we seem to have an adequate quantity of 8# Clays in Indiana.

[njl]

I run Clays at 4.6 grains under a Precision Delta 230 FMJRN. I like the powder allot. I have runs some Universal and found it much dirtier and problematic getting major without pressure indications. I've settled on Clays for .45 and .40 though little data exists for the .40. I don't know where you are located but we seem to have an adequate quantity of 8# Clays in Indiana.

4.6gr is 15% over what Speer lists as max load for .45acp 230gr. What length are you loading to?

[tgford58]

I load to 1.270. I've run over 20k rounds this year and never had any idication of over pressure. Split case, flat primers, excessive stretch - nothing. They chrono at 775 - 785 fps for a 175pf.