BayouSlide

For me, perhaps more important than where it will be is who are the people who will be running it. A great organizing staff makes for a great match. Curtis

The most straightforward reading of the rule book, which is most often the correct one , would imply that either side of the barricade is certainly a different "view" but from the same shooting "location" (box). You would not necessarily have to to even move your feet, just bend from the waist and stretch. It would be really difficult to make a case for it as two different shooting locations, IMO. Now if your shooting box was big enough, and the target placement was positioned to require some movement from one edge of the box to the other, that would be a different case. Curtis

Two shooting positions should make it legal for a Level I match. As far as the stage at the Gator we're discussing, I'm puzzled about how it was approved as well. Curtis

The only differences that immediately come to mind for Level I and II are the following, which cuts the Level I a little slack, allowing for easier/less restrictive setups: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." 9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1). In Level II or above, you cannot use the stage briefing to require a competitor not to engage a visible target. You need to deal with that with movers and swingers by vision barriers of some kind. Regarding Stage 1 at the Gator, based on the issues we're discussing, I don't see how it is a legal stage for a Level II match. If it had separately timed strings, it would have been a legal Standard stage. All the stages at the Gator should have been vetted by the NROI. Based on the rulebook, I don't see how it was approved. Maybe I'm missing something...it's been known to happen. Perhaps someone can clarify how this stage was legal for a Level II match. Curtis

With the shooting box, you'll run afoul of 1.2.1.2: (“Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.) Curtis Well, you've got 15 shots and the barrier in front of the box should stop the shooter from both seeing all shots from one view and it doesn't require more than 8. Could I add some no-shoots to force the shooter to go to either side? The problem is the wording, "any single location or view. You're still shooting all from one location. As soon as you start to stray from free style, you really have to pay attention to the rulebook. I ran afoul of all this and more during the COF design portion of my CRO...and George Jones taught me the error of my ways in no uncertain terms. Curtis

Same problem with 1.2.1.2. And as Joe4d noted, the mandatory reload is only legal in a standards course, not a medium course. Edited to add: We had an illegal stage design at the last Cajun Action match that ran afoul of these same rules, plus it was a Virginia Count, which per 9.2.3.2, can only be used for Classifiers, Standards or Short Courses. Conform to the requirements for a Standard (1.2..2.1) and you're good to go. Curtis

With the shooting box, you'll run afoul of 1.2.1.2: (“Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.) Curtis

If Ken Cobb and his group end up in charge of the match, they can count on me jumping in to RO. I can't begin to express how impressed I was with Ken, Lee, Scott and the other people behind this year's Area 4. I'd drive a long ways to support their efforts and work with them again. Curtis

I would guess they're talking about Princeton, La. Curtis

I think the best monthly matches offer a variety of courses, without undue emphasis on any in particular. A couple of fun free style field courses, medium and long, a barn burner stand-and-shoot or two, one real devilish challenge, with stages offer everything from in your face to accuracy challenges...it's variety that makes a good monthly match, IMO. Curtis

I think a fairer assessment of the overall time savings must consider the fact that, with the Palms, the data is only entered once and you're done, compared to paper which must then be keyed in again by the stats people. With Palm scoring, all arithmetic is automatically tallied and the program will not allow you to add extra hits on targets or miss targets completely. I'd rather score with the slowest Palm around than with the fastest pen for those two reasons alone. When I'm scoring, I ask the RO calling out scores to wait until I've repeated the scoring hits on the target before calling out the next one: I make sure that the entry is keyed in properly before confirming. Have the RO calling out hits sync to the Palm operation, not the other way around, and you make everything smoother and ensure the fastest scoring possible. Curtis

We've been doing so successfully with our monthly matches this year. Does seem to take an extra 15 minutes or so before hammer down at the end to set up. Received an e-mail that this weekend, registration will cut off at 8:30 a.m. with a streamlined registration so we can get started promptly at 9 a.m. Curtis

Lee, you're a nut but definitely a one. I can't begin to tell you guys how great it was to work with him and his stupendous set up at Area 4. It was a cool as it gets Curtis

For those not familiar with it, here's a video on how to score with the Palm. Probably posted elsewhere on the forum, but thought I'd embed the link, considering the discussion. Curtis

Lee Neel will probably chime in here. His set up for Area 4 included bigger external battery packs on the Palms for longer life. And SA Friday is right, the newer units can easily keep up with you. If you're stuck with an older Palm, sometimes you feel like you're waiting a little for input. And the older ones take a little time to resort names, etc., in a big match when you need to do something like add a shoot through to a squad when you have to sort through the entire list of competitors. Palm scoring is the future and I'm happy to be on that train...bet most stat people at matches would echo that sentiment in a heartbeat. Curtis

We've been using Palms at our monthly Cajun Action Shooters match in Thibodaux this year and used them to score the recent Gator Classic. Once you get over the small learning curve (and it is small despite the occasional kicking and screaming from the old guard), there is no reason to score any other way. We used back up paper slips at the Gator, just in case. I think they only were needed once from what I overheard. No manual addition, what you see on the summary screen is what you get, right up to the match postings. Scores are compiled and finalized before the match is torn down. So what's not to like? Some say it's a little slower than paper: perhaps, but not once you get up to speed. Add in the efficiency of compiling scores and lack of arithmetic or other errors creeping in, and it's hard to make a case against them. And if it's raining, put the Palm in a baggy—no more illegible written score sheets. The only problem is that when people are learning to input data, it's best to review your scores with the scoring RO on the summary screen before they're saved, just to catch egregious data entry errors. We used Palm scoring at Area 4 for over 250 competitors, with IIRC, only three minor problems, all easy to fix. At that match, Lee Neel had infrared portable printers at each stage so two printouts could be saved, a backup for the match and a copy for the competitor. Curtis Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

I used have similar problems with an occasional lighter powder drop when I was loading to around 133-135 PF, but that was with #13 spring. Bumped up the load to 137-8, now never a problem. A #15 spring is heavy for that load, IMO. My G34 runs fine with cleanings every 400-600 rounds (longer with non-10 rd. mags), detail strip cleaning every 2K, and no extractor issues for over 50K rounds. I change springs every 6K rounds (Wolf reduced stricker, ISMI #13 recoil, stock Glock trigger spring). Curtis

I'm in: will shoot Thursday and RO Friday-Sunday. Looking forward to it! Curtis

Appreciate your sharing your correspondence with John, Todd. Curtis

Not only did Kevin earn a great finish, he and his dad both jumped in to help the RO staff pick up and put away all the stage materials and props before the awards ceremony. Real class Congrats...the way he's going, this young man will need a lot of wall space for match plaques. Curtis Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Scores are now up at http://www.lagator.org/lagcinfo.htm Curtis Edited: corrected URL

Based on this discussion, that could change now that we know what to look for Not every CRO/RO is aware of all the nuances of the Production rules, including the latest clarifications. Those of us that shoot Production are more aware, but we're not always up on the details of every model of every manufacturer's gun. Please share the results of your correspondence. Based strictly on the rule book language, they would appear to be illegal. If not, a written ruling from John Amidon to the contrary would be a good addition to your range bag to avoid being unwillingly bumped into Open for a grip sleeve. FWIW, people have been bumped to Open at the Nationals IIRC, for a bit of grip tape on the slide, another no-no. Curtis

Nothing posted on our local site, lagator.org, or USPSA yet. I would bet something will be up this evening. I was the RO running the Palm Pilot scoring on Stage 3, the classifier. It was a pleasure to host such a great group of competitors. We appreciate the great comments and hope to see y'all next year. Curtis

The main bays are well-grassed so they might not be too bad unless they get torn up. We'll see what the weather brings. I read elsewhere that the match is full: 200 competitors Curtis

Should not be a problem. I understand that there will be a cookout for the ROs after we finish shooting on Friday, so there should be people around to take care of you. Curtis