Alan550

Gorilla, Why a new ejector? Just curious why the original wouldn't work ok. Alan~^~

That's typical of Kevin! Here at our Regional, the last place finisher goes to the Prize table first, and Kevin set that up specifically to draw more interest in the sport. What a guy! Alan~^~

Age, Experience and Treachery will always overcome Youth and Skill!

I pulled up behind a pickup that had a camper shell on it with the top part open, and a bunch of kids in the back. Bumper sticker said: "Don't tailgate me, I'll flick a bugger on your windshield!"

Well, they're gonna try to do just what I said in the beginning of this thread! The Rules Committee has a "tele-conference" meeting set for the VERY NEAR FUTURE ( read Monday, Aug.23) and here are some of the items on the "agenda"! 1. Change the rules for the Barricade Event (take away the wings/ shrouds in Open Division) 2. Change the rules on Production Firearm to reflect "Double Action" only guns to compete in the Production Category. 3. Amend the rules to say "All standard safety features of guns must operate properly". Gotta say "I told you so"!!!!! And they went farther than I thought, by eliminating all the DA/SA pistols from Production. That means you can't go buy a factory stock S&W auto, or any other maker for that matter, in its standard DA/SA format and shoot Production Class anymore. They aren't going to allow wings & shrouds in Open class even on the gun! So that means buying a new scope mount for semi-autos that have the shrouds now. It won't even be allowed on the gun, even if you don't use it!!! No more "pinned grip safeties" or deactivated magazine-disconnect safeties. As Grant said, this sport is comparable to Formula One racing, and to limit the equipment in such a manner will NOT help bring in more shooters, as is their claimed goal. Call it what you will, but the last rule change resulted in a grand total of 4 more shooters at the Cup this year over last year. They removed the Prone option at 25 on the Practical and totally on Plates. The result in the top scores was: 2003 had 11 shooters "clean" on Practical and 60 on Plates.......2004 had 7 "clean" on Practical and only 16 on Plates! This didn't "bring in the IPSC shooters" as desired, and only hurt the overall scores of the lower level shooters. So now, to lower the scores even further, and handicap the ones who really support the program, they're going after the wings and eliminating some factory guns from Production class and making them compete against "built, Custom-shop" single action semi-autos in Metallic Sight class. Sounds like a plan to kill the sport if I ever saw one. Grant's idea of a Modified class to be added is the best suggestion I've seen, but he's just one voice in the mix. Consequently, not much has been listened to by NRA it seems. There may still be time to save this sport, but I somehow don't see it being saved by NRA. One of the Rules Committee members made the statement at the shooters meeting that, after the Cup, he puts his "Bianchi Gun" back in the safe until the next Cup! That's not how most of us do it, so maybe I can understand why he's upset over spending that much money for a gun that he only uses for one match a year. Most of the rest of us shoot more than that and there's no reason we should be penalized for having spent the money to better our shooting scores just because of a few "whiners". {soap-box mode off} Just a heads-up on the changes that are coming your way, fellow shooters!

Try telling the cops at the Nationals in Sept. that they can't use "artificial support"! As the Duk said, the barricade was derived from the PPC Matches originally, and they sure use the barricade. Alan~^~

Hey Duk, Just when I think I know the"book" inside & out, along comes the Duk and points out what I should have seen years ago! Thanks for the clarification. Just proves I can learn something new every day! Thanks, Alan~^~

LGator, Start position on that course is not in the rule book, but to answer your main question, this is an accuracy game, NOT speed. Any shots over-time will deduct 10 points and an X from your score. Those are maximum times allowed, not par times. Start position is up to the RO, and most matches that I've participated in have used the "surrender" start for the Los Alamitos. The reason the NRA doesn't put these things on their web site is so that you have to buy a rule book! Plus shipping, of course! Alan~^~

HG, So long as you make power factor, shoot the most accurate load you can get. The "Comps" are mainly there for the weight at that low a level of power. Also, you might consider the fastest and lightest bullets to make for less of a lead-factor on the mover. I know those 2 statements seem to be contradicting each other, but fast, light bullets that are accurate out to 50 yds are your best bet, even though the comp may not be very efficient. Alan~^~

Kingman, Actually, the WV match is a Regional, and the VA is a State Championship the very next day. Your best bet would be a Motel in Princeton, WV to put you about an hour from the Regional and about 20 minutes from the Va State match on Sunday. I'll try to get your e-mail address and send you the info on both shoots. Or you can contact me at Alan550@yahoo.com and I'll send it then. Classification is simple enough if oyu shoot at least 144 rounds in an Approved, or Registered match. The ones listed in Shooting Sports USA will fit that catagory. Alan~^~

Sorry for the thread drift........... Alan~^~

IYAOYAS, And these are the very shooters that NRA is changing the rules to attract? Phooey! Alan~^~

We had a match this past weekend and if you'd shot here, you'd have come in 4th out of 10 Metallic Sight shooters.......not slouchy for a first timer at all!!! Scores in that class ranged from 1655 down to 677, a mix of revolvers and semi-autos. As long as you improve each time, that's the ticket!! Keep it up, and enjoy yourself. BTW, the 1655-guy was shooting in metallic for the first time, and is a High Master in Open class (17th at the Cup)! Of the next 2 behind him, one of those is a Master in Open, and the other is a recent convert from IPSC. Alan~^~

The Rules Committee will be meeting in Sept. & Oct. to decide any changes. We won't have the final word until after that. Alan~^~

Kingman, The Rules Committee has its first meeting in Sept. and another in Oct. to determine any changes. There'll be no official word until late in the year, but "unofficial" reports will be available after each meeting. There are many others awaiting the rulings who are having guns built, and the consensus among the locals here is to get the shrouds, but that's a personal decision on their part. I can't recommend either way yet, as it will come down to how the various members on the Rules Committee feel about any proposed changes, and how much input the active shooters have. Sorry if this isn't much help, but that's how it stands as of now. Alan~^~

Virginia has State Games in July and they have Defensive Pistol, and (I'm not sure on this one) I think IPSC also. Alan~^~

Chuck, ICASE wasn't a "knee-jerk" reaction. We pleaded with the Rules Committee at the cup to at least let the shooters have some input in the proposed rule changes. They, in so many words, said it was their backyard, their baseball, and if we didn't like it, we could go home! They have "a vision" for drawing in more IPSC shooters that just won't work. Rule changes in the past were instituted in order to bring in more IPSC shooters, and to no avail! There are clubs around the US and in other countries as well, that are trying to increase participation in NRA Action Pistol in many ways. Our local club just invested over $4,000.00 to get a mover and put in permanent barricades. Just when things are finally coming together for us, they change the rules? WHY? Don't rain on our parade just because you think they're on the right track. We plan to continue having NRA Approved matches, but those who want to shoot under the ICASE rules will be allowed to do so. NRA will be deprived of the money only for those who so choose. The rest will be sent in as requested for their NRA Classification cards. I realize that most people don't like change, and some of that attitude describes the ICASE movement, but change is inevitable. Neither do most people like being dictated to, but that's where NRA is headed. Let them go their way, but allow those of us who liked the "old rules" to go our way in peace also, and may both ideas flourish! Alan~^~

dirtypool40, Actually what happened was that when Robbie's wife sent in his entry, she forgot to add the extra $25.00 to enter the World Cup! So he got left out of that one......... Alan~^~

Dave, What's this I see? YOU went prone? My, my! Hope it wasn't on one of the BIG FOUR Cup events! That's against the rules now. Maybe it was the Speedload challenge or some such that they didn't mess with..............yeah, that's it! Fun though, wasn't it? Alan~^~

Actually, it's only $4.50 that we who run the matches have to send NRA. By the time you figure in target expense and other "supplies" it probably does run around $7.00 per shooter. We had our first AP match at our club today and had 23 shooters show up from a s far away as 3 hours! If this is any indication, AP is alive & well in Central Va. YIPPEE! :-) And the shooters ranged from High Masters to Unclassifieds. Several non-NRA members, and 7 or 8 who'd never shot AP before. We drew IPSC and IDPA shooters from surrounding clubs who were really enthusiastic about coming back. Only next month will tell the tale, but I think this is gonna work! BTW, we shot by the 1997 rules, everybody can touch the barricade, lean on it, hold it or fondle it if they want, as long as they stay in the shooter's box! Prone? You betcha! Anybody, anywhere they can or want to! The main comment I heard from the new guys was how much fun it was to shoot a match with no restrictions on how it's done! ICASE Forever! Alan~^~

That "Bluefield, Washington" Regional was a misprint. It's actually the Virginia State Championship in Bluefield, VA. Notice the contact info is for a Virginia address and the date's the same. NRA's goof, not Dave's Alan~^~

Got to use an old analogy here: The NRA knows how to boil a frog! Put a frog in a boiling pot and he'll jump out. Put him one a pot of water at room temp, turn on the heat, and by the time he realizes what's up, he's too weak to jump out. They're taking away the equipment a piece at a time, just like the gun-control people are trying to do with guns overall. Take away the prone this year, then it's the wings, next on the agenda is the mover adjustments. Each time, somebody will say "Well, I don't have it so it doesn't bother me." Sooner or later, we'll all have to find a shooting sport that doesn't limit the so-called "equipment race" to have our fun. And again, I don't see IPSC/USPSA changing their rules to accomodate AP shooters. Alan~^~

Dave, you nailed that one! Went to an IPSC match last year that involved a stage with a 35-yd target and 2 at 10 yds. Drill was 6 shots, free-style on the 35, reload and 6 weak hand on one of the 10s. Next course was 6 shots on the 35, freestyle, reload and 6 strong hand on the other 10. You never heard such whining! NOBODY but some of the AP shooters could even HIT the 35, much less score As & Cs. AP is much more "finite" as you so aptly put it. Alan~^~

The $300.00 entry fee numbers are BS. Free entries are given to Regional winners, and even some Class winners at some of the Regionals. Early-Bird entries are lower, and so are Buddy Entries. So that figure is bogus. They haven't paid $10,000 to the winner since 2002 at least. Last year paid $7,000 and $3,500 to Open and Stock respectively. Some may have "crapped out" at the chrono, or been DQ'd for some reason other than that. The only shortcoming I see in IPSC/USPSA classes is that there is no "Open Revolver" class. Other than that, they have it right! Open should mean just what it says..........OPEN........WFO. Technically speaking, wings have been illegal from the start (Rule 5.2 Artificial Support). And I quote" Artificial support is defined as follows: (a) Any supporting surfaces, except the ground, not specifically authorized for use in the rules for the position prescribed. ( Any garment, including gloves, which can be interpreted as providing artificial support. © Other devices which can be interpreted as artificial support. [emphasis added] (see rule 13.1)" Now rule 13.1 refers to handicapped shooters, so taking what's in the rules already, they have allowed illegal guns since I've been shooting the sport! {soapbox mode off} What we're trying to accomplish is to NOT slow the technological "race" and NOT have a bunch of shooters who have a lot of money invested in ($4,000.00 paper weights) guns that can't be used after the investment has been made. Thanks for the input guys (and ladies). Alan~^~

So much to respond to and so little time........whew! I'll start with Flex. The rules would be according to the 1997 book before they outlawed prone for what was then "Stock Guns". Jimmyb: I want NRA alive & well too! They just don't seem to want us anymore. The so-called "prize bags" this year, along with the shooter's bags at the beginning, didn't include many things that we've learned to take for granted at the Cup. No caps (you had to buy one if you wanted it) and some of the sponsors pulled out. For example, there was no card for a free Brownell's catalog this year. Why did they leave us? There was no Bianchi Cup pin this year either, unless you bought it. If there was one available it was at the NRA table. This NRA is slowly taking away the enjoyment for the ones of us who have practiced so long using the so-called "old rules". Sure, it might "level the playing field" to take away wings and mover scopes but so would taking slings and shooting coats away from the high-power shooters. Wonder how long that rule change (made without input from the shooters) would last? They obviously have an agenda to get rid of the Cup. The expense of it was mentioned so many times it isn't funny. We plan to still have NRA sanctioned matches at our club, but if a shooter wants to go prone with ANY gun, that's ok with us. It will be stated in the "Match Director's Bulletin" that scores fired under those conditions won't be sent to NRA to keep them from being reclassified using methods that aren't acceptable at the Cup. After ICASE gets off the ground and organized well enough to be a sanctioning body, we can tell the NRA the same thing they told us at the shooter's meeting! To use the vernacular of my friends from NZ, they told us to "get stuffed". More later. Alan~^~