Robco

Malcom31- One thing I am learning from my own experience and working with lots of shooters at differing levels of skill and experience is that "one size does NOT fit all on most techniques, processes, etc." And the follow up on that statement is that at any given TIME and POINT in a shooter's development, a particular technique may or may NOT be appropriate for them personally. Later, maybe, but not now. Even similarly classified shooters will have many differences in their skill levels on any given component of our sport. Add to this individual personality, physical, conditioning, body type and mental differences and there is a huge spectrum of capacities brought to each component by each shooter. In the present discussion, it has to be considered that for any given shooter, moving through a stage walkthrough at full speed may or may not be best for them. For one thing, the more advanced and skilled a shooter is on movement skills, the more they will benefit from a full speed walkthrough rehearsal, because they have learned to rely on FEEL and momentum development and stopping to a high degree. You cannot simulate such momentum and the resultant timings of the entries and exits, without a full speed movement sequence. On the other hand, the REALLY top shooters are so familiar with all of these metrics having done them so many times, that they can accurately imagine/visualize these aspects in a walkthrough, without having to waste the energy simulating them. Same thing applies to dry fire work, generally. The very new beginners can benefit a lot from dry fire practice, mostly for gun handling and not sight picture purposes. And the Very Highly experienced shooters know enough from lots of actual live fire to honestly simulate the actual trigger control and visual sight work while dry firing. While Mid-level shooters (or ANY level if they are not careful) can really do damage to their shooting by dry firing improperly IF they do not keep it realistic. At my level, low M class starting 5th year now, I prefer to use full speed walkthroughs for at least the last few of my 10- 20 runs while learning the stage. Mostly because I am still a rookie at working on and learning the advance movement skills. I also work hard at obtaining proper and realistic sight pictures for each shot and good (air) trigger control for each shot during a walkthrough. I used to race through a 18 second (for a GM) course of fire, in 8 seconds in my walkthrough until Charlie Perez pointed out that error to me in the 2013 Nationals. That is worse than not walking through at all, in my opinion. Do that type of memory work standing still with your eyes closed- but not air gunning through the course of fire. Keep the two separate. I.e., if you are doing an actual walkthrough, air-gunning to simulate the actual stage performance you plan to do, then MAKE IT REALISTIC in the most minute details, not "kind of like" what you intend to do. Even the very TOP shooters do this. Yesterday I watched Sevigny, Nils, and Krogh shoot two stages at Area 2, after I finished my own shooting for the day. They do their walkthroughs like I do, which is no coincidence. I learned HOW by watching and training with them! Imitate until you master it and only then can you consider bettering it.

Ha. I like your attitude. That was a very tough match. Heard a few people complaining it was so hard. The swingers were almost all arcing type, same as at Area 2 (you only see them while they are moving, not reversing). And tons of long shots with N/S's too. Anyway, if you work at and stick with it all, it gets better, little by little. I would get the 3GM videos as a good start for learning all the fundamentals. You can watch them as many times and as often as you like. You have Manny Bragg down at Universal Shooting academy, not so far from you, who is a top, full time trainer in our sport. I would consider getting some training with Manny. But in the mean time, the DVDs will teach you a lot. The more you know, the more you will get out of all of your live fire, match experience and any training. I shoot Area 2, starting tomorrow. Spent 6 hours today studying the stages. Many stages I will never be still while shooting. Going to be some high HF stages!

Good deal Lawton. Saul Kirsch is great. Listen to his stuff. I have several of his training DVDs too. You should check out his two, entitled 3GM 1 and 2. Awesome. I have watched them MANY times over and learn more each time. Max and Angus and Saul give their own perspectives on each area of training. What big match did you shoot recently, the Florida Open (based on your video link)?

Congrats! Keep in mind that it doesn't always feel like that (kind of an out of body experience, an epiphany). Sometimes it just "feels" like you were going slower, sometimes like a "normal" run.In any case, stick with your plan and good luck at Area 2. Yeah I agree. Heading out for the day now, to watch staff shoot and study the stages. Meeting Charlie Perez when he flies in at noon. Great weather!

Yeah, I don't try to look at scores or standings or any results until each evening during a match. I have enough experience and analyze enough to KNOW where I am placing on any given stage after I complete it, just intuitively. Focusing only on shooting and callings A hits, one by one, seems to be the key to success.

Here is a little 20 second video of my last practice session today, before Area 2 begins. Isn't this a beautiful setting to train in? Out in the desert near where I am staying, on public land. I have portable folding target stands and everything, just like at any range. Privacy and plenty of room. Like laying out three separate bays of drills all at once.

Thanks Nimitz. That is good stuff. You seem to be making some significant progress. Amazing, our sport! Today I went out into the desert here, for my last training session before Area 2. Shot 600 rounds and I think I have gotten my stuff together! Shot all of my usual drills, mostly shooting on the move. I was mentally focusing on SEEING everything and it worked. I am going to spend all day tomorrow watching the staff shoot Area 2 and walking the stages myself, video recording them all to study and memorize. I shoot all three days, Friday, Sat and Sunday and all I really care about is SEEING everything all of the time. That is going to become my WHOLE focus. If I manage to execute on this, I will finish near 90% in the match. If not, then we will see. Regardless, it is not the outcome I am now finally focusing on, as you pointed out here. I am focusing on the process, shot by shot! Rob

That is a cool method Dwight - pressing the tongue. Where did you learn that?

Thanks Rob D. I believe the reason I was aware of it while it was happening on Stage 2 yesterday, was because it was my whole motion for shooting this match. To put into practice the mental stuff. Interesting that dry fire can train the mental side as you said. Never thought of that aspect in this specific situation, but why not? Makes perfect sense. I have long known, the learned the hard way of course, that however we practice, we will do in match performances too. Especially that I used to practice always running in the red, pushing myself 100% of the time. And then the disbelief when on match day, I rush everything during each stage! It is a long journey and I am well on the way, but far from where I need to be to become consistent. Hoping I will at least be able to do this right (Shoot within my own skill level) for say, 1/3 of the stages in Area 2 in 2 days. Note, I KNOW it is unreasonable to expect a 100% change overnight on this. But from occasional glimpses comes eventual change and finally if I stay the course, consistency! Thanks

Until we reach the heavy caliber pistols this is true. This noise and recoil sensitivity is the only true flinch when it comes to pre ignition push. Most active shooters work though this fairly quickly. What we are left with is the shooter subconsciously tries to compensate for recoil that hasn't happened yet. Ray Chapman called that being a Now shooter. This is why a shooter can do just fine when shooting slow but anticipates when they try to shoot faster. Shooting faster changes the timing of the trigger pull/ignition/recoil cycle. The conscious mind has to see and recognize the sight movement before the subconscious can begin to correct it. So, noise/recoil sensitivity=flinch. Recoil anticipation=not a flinch. I agree that recoil anticipation is NOT a flinch. Yes, it will produce a downward movement of the pistol, as evidenced even by good shooters when they unexpectedly run dry and drop hammer on an empty chamber or dummy round. But this is not a fault really. And is not a flinch. It is a trained response. Just wanted to make that point and differentiate flinch from recoil anticipation. +1 on this. The only time the push is a fault is when it is before ignition. Then it is the classic low left shot for a right handed shooter. I'd buy that as well. When I started shooting I chose .40 cal and shot it a lot using standard ball ammo, not lightly loaded hand loads, and was damn accurate with it. After about a year of listening to all of the 9mm hype I decided to try 9mm and couldn't hit a damn thing with it. Apparently, I was programmed for .40 cal recoil. It took me a long time and a lot of rounds before I was able to shoot 9mm as well as I did .40. Now it makes no difference what I shoot. Good point TDA. I think you experienced and overcame "timing" changes. Good job!

I'm not at your level(yet) but I was having similar problems a couple of years ago. I could hang with master class shooters when I was calm and shooting with buddies at a club match, but any time the score mattered(like a major match or on a classifier) I would lose focus and shoot very inconsistently. Lanny Bassham's book "With winning in mind" dramatically increased my consistency. It gives you all the tools you need to make sure that your mind is in the right place whether you're practicing by yourself or shooting your last stage at a big match. YMMV. Right on brother! I bought Lanny's book and also the audio version of it and have almost memorized it by listening to it so many times. It has helped me at least develop the understanding of the mental game, although executing on it has not yet occurred to the extent I desire. Just like you said. I have been immersed in this exact subject for the last weeks, coming off of recent match failures as a result of mental management errors. Yesterday, I shot a Steel Match at Rio Salado, with the sole intent of trying to PLAY with some of this stuff, in a match which I did not care at all about the outcome. (Note I have and am so eager to get wins now with my burgeoning new found shooting skills, that EVERY match is always TOO important to me!). Anyway I had mixed results in the steel match, because I was experimenting. The truly AMAZING thing that happened in the match was when I finally actually discovered and experienced what Brian Enos has always said, but I never got till yesterday. On stage 2, I won it by almost 9% (1.5 seconds faster) over the second place Limited guy. But that is not the point here. I actually and consciously found myself OBSERVING MY PERFORMANCE while shooting, as the shooting just "happened." I was so in the zone and flowing that I had no misses and no makeups on 20 steel targets shot quickly. (two plate racks, one at either extreme side, with a center array with 4 10 inch plates and 2 24 in square plates). I was astonished, not at my performance itself, but by the obvious, immediate realization that I had actually executed in the proper mindset. This "proves" that I have all the knowledge and skills at a high level now, and that when I can actually "get out of my own way" during a match performance, I can probably shoot 90% of the best shooters in the world. So my challenge, as you mentioned, is consistency. Being able to reproduce this type of performance, regularly, not just a stage winning hero or zero type garbage. My main performance destroyer is my mindset. Not my skills. So this is what I am going to work on most now.

This has been my experience as well. The first year or so I was shooting I would do a 20-30 round warmup. 10 shots at 2 seconds per shot, then 10 at 1 second per shot, then 10 at .5 sec/shot, just focusing on the front sight. I still sometimes blink on the first shot of a stage or match, but the flinch only shows up WHO (due to my slacking off that skill in practice). I find in bill drills I am pretty easily able to avoid blinking. On normal targets, the more I look for the sight before breaking the 2nd shot, the less I blink. the hardest for me is slow fire. I have gone thru periods in my shooting, even in the last 3 months, where I catch myself blinking while shooting. Just some temporary sensitivity or mindset, etc that comes on me for some reason, momentarily. Probably some lack of focus or concentration on the shooting, so the break is a "surprise" to me at that moment. I end it instantly because it is not a habit of mine, but it does happen occasionally. This comports with what you said, motosapiens, that it happens more when you slow fire, because with slow shooting trigger control, the break usually is MORE of a surprise, as in rifle shooting. I would say it is not only a natural, but even an intelligent automatic reflex response to such violence in front of our eyes - to protect our eyes - an instinctual survival behavior. So we all just have to learn to deal with it, meaning figure out how to overcome closing the eyes at all, ever, while shooting, because it is really not an option for competitive shooters (cannot call a shot if you don't see the sights at break).

Until we reach the heavy caliber pistols this is true. This noise and recoil sensitivity is the only true flinch when it comes to pre ignition push. Most active shooters work though this fairly quickly. What we are left with is the shooter subconsciously tries to compensate for recoil that hasn't happened yet. Ray Chapman called that being a Now shooter. This is why a shooter can do just fine when shooting slow but anticipates when they try to shoot faster. Shooting faster changes the timing of the trigger pull/ignition/recoil cycle. The conscious mind has to see and recognize the sight movement before the subconscious can begin to correct it. So, noise/recoil sensitivity=flinch. Recoil anticipation=not a flinch. I agree that recoil anticipation is NOT a flinch. Yes, it will produce a downward movement of the pistol, as evidenced even by good shooters when they unexpectedly run dry and drop hammer on an empty chamber or dummy round. But this is not a fault really. And is not a flinch. It is a trained response. Just wanted to make that point and differentiate flinch from recoil anticipation. +1 on this. The only time the push is a fault is when it is before ignition. Then it is the classic low left shot for a right handed shooter. exactly right

Until we reach the heavy caliber pistols this is true. This noise and recoil sensitivity is the only true flinch when it comes to pre ignition push. Most active shooters work though this fairly quickly. What we are left with is the shooter subconsciously tries to compensate for recoil that hasn't happened yet. Ray Chapman called that being a Now shooter. This is why a shooter can do just fine when shooting slow but anticipates when they try to shoot faster. Shooting faster changes the timing of the trigger pull/ignition/recoil cycle. The conscious mind has to see and recognize the sight movement before the subconscious can begin to correct it. So, noise/recoil sensitivity=flinch. Recoil anticipation=not a flinch. I agree that recoil anticipation is NOT a flinch. Yes, it will produce a downward movement of the pistol, as evidenced even by good shooters when they unexpectedly run dry and drop hammer on an empty chamber or dummy round. But this is not a fault really. And is not a flinch. It is a trained response. Just wanted to make that point and differentiate flinch from recoil anticipation.

The first question to consider on shooting on the move, is whether you should or not on any given targets or array. You have to know your own capabilities and limitations with regard to shooting on the move of all target difficulties. Moving sideways (not to or away from the target(s)) is the hardest variety. Manny Bragg and I spent a half hour and 200 rounds proving our limitations on this scenario. 4 full-open IPSC targets, spaced 3 yards apart. We moved in a line parallel to them. We found, consistently, that my maximum range was 7 yards. At 8 yards I threw C's. At 7 yards, all A's. Manny, a top 5 or 10 in the world shooter, was only 1 yard longer than my limitation. His was at 8 yards. For partials and N/S risk, this distance decreases significantly. So, find out what your capabilities are (what you can do, getting all A hits, 5 out of 5 runs). And apply this filter when studying a stage for opportunities. Shooting on the move is all about points per second. If you have to move so slow to get A hits, then it is probably better to shoot and run instead. Shooting on the move slow, gives you the worst of both worlds - reduced accuracy and inefficient ground covering. When moving towards or away from targets, shooting on the move can be done at a much longer range. Find out your capabilities on these too. This is your "database" as Saul Kirsch calls it. Learn yours from practice notes. A match is not the place to "try" something. And if you cannot do it 5 out of 5 times for sure, do NOT try it in a match. Open shooters can get away with a lot more than iron sights shooters when it comes to shooting on the move. Do not try to follow an open shooter's example if you are not shooting open. As many pointed out above, a lot of time gains come from the close kin to shooting on the move, which is shooting while the body is not still, while entering a location and while leaving a location. This can shave a half second or more off of each end of a transition. It is actually shooting while "leaning." It is different that shooting on the move, because you are not violently putting down your feet while shooting leaving/entering. This is why it can be done quite accurately. Prove it all to yourself, in live fire on the clock. Set up 5 targets 8 feet apart, in a line. A shooting box at each end of this line. Start at one end, 7 yards away, and move in a line parallel to the targets as you shoot them. First scenario, draw and shoot the first four without moving your feet, from Box A, then run down to Box B at the end across from the last target T5 and shoot the last target after entering the box (to stop the clock for comparison purposes). Do several runs to get a representative time, and Hit Factor (HF). Then, second scenario, Start in Box A and shoot all of the first four targets on the move heading towards box B. Enter Box B and shoot the last target. Repeat to get an avg HF on this scenario. Compare the two scenario results. I assure you that you will be significantly better off shooting on the move, both in accuracy and faster time too. HF will probably be 30% higher here by shooting on the move. I have done this with a dozen trainees and every single time it increased their accuracy and reduced their times by 30%. One reason the accuracy increased when shooting on the move, is because you are significantly closer to T3 and T4 than when you shot them from Box A = a benefit not always recognized when closing distance by shooting on the move. Even though your accuracy is challenged due to a moving gun, being able to engage a target at half the range more than makes up for it, PLUS the time savings of covering ground while shooting at the same time. Points per second. Ever wonder why some stages have 14 Hit factors (HF) and some have 4 HF averages? It is due to how much of the time shooting is occurring. If you have to do a lot of running around between having targets to shoot at, it will be a lower HF. If you can shoot 8 targets from one location, it will be a high HF. When you are not shooting, the timer is still running and robbing you of points at the rate of the stage HF for you. So you want to be shooting as much of the time as you can be! Shooting on the move, when appropriate, allows more points per second for that part of the stage. Top performers minimize the time that they are not shooting. Shooting holes in the paper (or knocking down steel) is the ONLY source of points in our sport. Period. They speed up everything between the actual shooting to decrease the loss of points the non-shooting time costs them.They are ready to shoot sooner when entering a location, and shoot later while leaving a position sooner = all to shorten the time between shots. This is the type of testing you need to do to learn your own capabilities and limitations, so you can appropriately decide when or when not to shoot on the move in any given stage/array.

Johnmac: Anybody have an idea what aspect of dry fire actually is the culprit in causing injury? ********************************************************************************************************************************************** Johnmac: I typed a nice long response and lost it when I changed page. Anyway, it is from the repetitive stress of pressing the mag release button. Happened to me in December while doing shoot-reload-shoot drills in a training session. Did about 30 in a row, non-stop, and got to under 1 second time (on 24 x 24 plate at 8 yards) - stressful. It obviously injured my tendons in the process and took me a couple months to get over it using therapies I described above in this thread. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=182257&page=3#entry2343952 I had shot 15K rounds, and about 20 matches in that same month in Mesa, Az, and shot every day of the month, even with the Xmas break. Not a problem, until I did that drill training with Kyle Schmidt. It was just too much for my elbow tendons. Damage occurs, then it takes a lot of time and effort to remodel the scar tissue and get the tendons all sliding smoothly again so they don't re-injure every time you use them.

thank you very much for the reply. I think there is some misconception as to the purpose of this exercise due to the name. It is not simply building memory, I could play memory matching games with my four year old for that. It is more for building awareness and attention to details. Example for sniping is I can look at a photo for a few seconds and tell you where the most likely place for an enemy sniper to hide and where I would set up a shot. Neither are at the highest point. Example for USPSA: when I walk a stage I see everything, not just target arrays and what order I want to engage. Things I see are places where the gravel is loose, if a shooting box sticks up more on the side or the back which may determine what angle I want to enter, how many strides I need to take before I can engage the next target array etc etc. I don't think these exercises are the answer to everything and I am following Robco's other threads with great interest. My only real statement is that I know these techniques work for a shooter to increase situational awareness even while shooting, they help with overcoming tunnel vision so you don't forget the two small steel targets that blend in with berm. Hope this helps clarify. Love this forum, full of lots of very knowledgable shooters and most have a good sense of humor. That is some cool stuff repins1911. I can see it being beneficial for sure.

Good for you learning to shoot pistols! From your description and post, I think there are multiple things going on. Jumping on the trigger and thus jerking it will result in the low-left hits for right handed shooters. This plagues most shooters = we call it Trigger Control. It is a training issue and is not related to flinching although BOTH errors could be occurring at the same time and compounding the effect. Jumping on and jerking a trigger is usually due to lack of skill in executing a shot = specifically trying to quickly fire the shot when the sights line up, before they move off the target again in the normal oscillations that always occur in a "Hold." A flinch is a perfectly normal and involuntary reaction to an explosion going off right in front of your face! You may also be closing your eyes when this happens too. A flinch comes from the shoulders and arms, not the trigger finger and probably not the hands although they may be involved. You need to always keep your eye/eyes open while shooting, continuously - not even a momentary blink. Have a friend watch you, from a safe angle off to your side while live firing to see if you are blinking. Or video yourself. So, not to make this sound complicated, but shooting is a complex process and not a natural one for us at first. You will need to train yourself both not to flinch or blink and also to properly operate the trigger. Two different and distinct skills. Good luck and welcome to pistol shooting!

Trigger prep and trigger control are related but separate actions. When you begin to prep the trigger, regardless of when or how you are accomplishing that, it is possible if not likely, that you are at the same time resuming/re-establishing your strong hand grip. This of course would involve movement in the other three fingers besides the trigger finger. It happens on EVERY shot to one extent or another, and is unavoidable. The key is to not have these fingers move at all right before the shot breaks. We need to realize this, and learn to accomplish a trigger pull which is part prep, part pressuring up and travel take-up and then finally a break. I have trained many folks who were shooting consistent, tight pairs on 10 yard targets, impacting 8 inches low and 3 or 4 inches left. Right handers. I then shot their pistol and it was sighted in dead on for me. I worked with them a few minutes on this trigger pull and control concept and in minutes, they magically eliminated the low-left deflection that was concurring. It is sometimes tricky to diagnose, because, contrary to what one would think, jerking a trigger can be extremely consistently executed, resulting in a tight group.

Yep on both. But I should have asked Eddie why he did it. He would probably have said, same thing you did, plus he was shooting open so a little safer to shoot the N/S partial faster. Maybe he wanted to leave on the easy open one? Anyway, Eddie shuffle hopped to the port, so was not faster than me on that transition, for sure. Interesting.

Here is a pretty fair and balanced article on a vision professional site, summarizing the eye exercise controversy in a short, easy read. Might help anyone get started in their own research into the subject. Here are two excerpts from the article: "You possibly can "train" your eyes to see better in different ways, such as in how your brain and your eyes adapt and function." and "These programs differ from supervised programs of vision therapy prescribed by eye doctors (usually optometrists) to correct certain eye alignment and other binocular vision problems, or to enhance dynamic visual skills for sports vision." http://www.allaboutvision.com/buysmart/see_clearly.htm

Yes, actually running in a walkthru is "icing on the cake," compared to the vast majority of other aspects that can be gained simply by walking the stage. Unusual or awkward positions should be felt though during the walkthru, whether it is a wicked lean, or kneeling/prone, or a climb to a perch etc. As those are not things you would normally be able to effectively visualize otherwise.And if you RUN thru a full energy walkthru, 20 times, you will literally be worn out. Especially doing so on 15 different stages, 20 times each! I actually do that the day before a match, and it is one heck of a workout. So I would NOT waste that explosive energy needed, doing more than one full speed walkthru when readying to shoot the stage. By the way, if we COULD use a gun replica in a walkthru it would be twice as effective, no doubt about it. I do it in practice at my own private range and it is much more effective when compared to an "air-gun" walkthru. Which brings up the general point, that the more real a simulation can be, the more valuable and effective the learning value of the rehearsal. Clearly this encompasses the FEEL aspect and learning process/pathway to our minds. It is one thing to imagine a dynamic, movement event, and quite another to actually experience it. I want my walkthru of a stage to be as close as possible to the real run, including the temporal aspect of it. I see many less experienced shooters (like myself until Charlie Perez taught me otherwise at the 2013 Nationals) running through a stage walkthru at least TWICE as fast as the match winner could possibly shoot it. That is training to do the same thing in the actual live performance. And a B class shooter rehearsing to shoot at 2X GM speed is not going to work out well.

Interim Update on a little research I have been able to do on my own, regarding Vision Therapy - Eye exercises essentially. First, it should be noted that this is a hugely controversial area on the net. Lots of aggressive "hucksters" out there making sensational claims and promising miraculous results for a small fee, etc. Traditional eye care service providers generally "call BS" on it all, which may or may not be the truth, but we should consider their point of view. I.e., a lot of their incomes may be threatened if eye glasses were rendered unnecessary by eye exercises for example. I am no dog in this fight and have not tried any of these ideas myself, so bear that in mind. I am simply beginning my research now. Second, lots of cited official sounding studies clarify that many physical eye sight problems cannot possibly be improved by eye exercises. I tend to believe this, to the limited extent I understand it all at this point. Analogous to my belief that infections are better cured with antibiotics than by prayer. However, my expectation at this early stage of my research is that eye exercises make sense for improving function of a healthy eye, especially for visual improvement capabilities for practical pistol shooting. Much of the eye-work involved in our sport involves muscles in the eye area, so it follows that those muscles, like all others, might benefit from exercise. Just don't expect miracles regarding vision correction, for example. So I am not dissuaded at all. Especially when we can apparently get the information for free and give it a try! Below is one site link, out of many I looked at, which provides most of the exercises which I have seen in other sources and those mentioned by my Optometrist friend and GM shooter. I will give them a try. Nothing to lose but a little time. I see no risk. And of course this in not an endorsement at all, nor any sort of recommendation that you should not, instead, still follow rowdyb's advice about consulting a vision development practitioner. http://www.eyetrainer.org/ Check it out.

Paul, This is another great post by you! You are literally inspiring me to finally do what I already know I need to do, but have repeatedly failed - shoot a match at my own ability and see how it works out for me! I am going to plan on doing this at Area 2 starting Friday. You make so many good points that mirror my own findings and experience, and we share a very similar tenure and quick climb to M class, in a couple years, yet have not yet risen to match performance to match our classification. I notice you have not shot any large matches. You need to remedy this my friend! How about Area 1 in June, not too far from Oregon! (Was IN Oregon last year). I think it is time for you to spread your wings. Below is a post I made this morning, in reply to a 2 year old thread started by Donovan Montross. He is a young guy in his late 20's I guess, out near you, who made GM fast and shoots relaxed as far as I can tell. Nice guy. I stated some things in that post this morning you can identify with! Thanks Rob Beginning of Donovan's Topic post = http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169004#entry1873850 My comment at the end of Donovan's thread = http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169004&page=3#entry2346272

J, I understand and figured you had this interest and agree such would be nice to have and try. I am not yet aware of any, but just in the last three days I have begun research into exactly this. Go check out my Topic and the reply posts here for some very interesting stuff on the subject of Vision Development. rowdyb brought this potential therapy up in my Topic thread and it has been fascinating. As you will see, been a lot of info provided in the thread, including my meeting yesterday morning with a friend at the Rio Salado club match, Kerry Pearson, who is not only a USPSA GM but also a practicing optometrist. You will not want to miss out on that entire thread and subject as we are getting into it as we write. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=210804#entry2343809 Rob