jroback

He is direct, funny and edgy. But just because you paid $400 doesn't mean he won't laugh at you when you screw up. It never bothered me, and I screwed up a fair bit. But some people don't handle that kind of coaching well. They're the ones who need to bring their thick skin.

So true ! But there is a method to his madness. . .

^^ Thanks.

i spoke to Krystl and Sphinx not too long ago and she said that the Duty size were available (same as SDP Compact, but with full size grip for 17 rnd magazines) and that the Full size will be available this year. Is that the only difference between the Compact and Compact Duty (slightly longer grip and 2 more rounds in Duty)?

Yeah, I saw that too. They also made a couple comments on facebook about big announcements at Shot Show. I'm hoping it has to do with the full size.

Ben Stoeger videos

These are my absolute favorite kinds of stories, where years of struggle are spent chasing a goal. Its especially cool when considering the level of skills you've developed after all that work (I like the vid where you catch the mag!) Thanks for showing shooters like me (who are still way back on the skills curve) that it can be done.

"I like his thought processes and problem-solving ability, and the way he encourages shooters to experiment a bit and figure some things out for yourself." I agree that these are among the most important things that separate him from the majority of shooters. He doesn't seem to accept conventional wisdom, but rather thoroughly tests out different approaches to every aspect of his game to find the way that's best for him.

I bet Vogel would be pretty good. no doubt. there are a few supersquad guys like max, vogel, sevigny, maybe tilley that appear to be in much better than average shape. There are also some guys in pretty average shape. There are also some guys in a pretty round shape. NTTIAWWT, lol. Maybe I should stop imagining things. I took a class with Ben a year ago, and my grip needed a lot of work. He told me to drop my weak hand off the gun, and he put his weak hand in its place, saying "you should be gripping this hard". You know, it was a strong grip, but not like a vise. He definitely has a lot of skills that make him such an outstanding shooter, but being a better pure athlete than the other competitors is not one of his advantages.

I should have mentioned that I just started reloading, so I'm just working on a single stage press right now. But I checked primers, and they were either flush or slightly countersunk. I went back and remeasured all the 147 gr rounds I currently had on hand (~ 30), and then compared headstamps. All the Blazer and FC headstamps (~ half of what I had) were consistent (1.128-1.132), while WIN were always long (up to 1.140). There were too few of other headstamps to draw any conclusions. I will keep an eye on this. . .

just off the top of my head, I would suggest going to youtube and searching: shannon smith grip, vogel grip, seeklander grip. Each of them have good videos where they go into detail on how they grip the pistol. You can probably get good views of their thumb placements.

Yes, I was loading mixed brass, but it was the same regardless of the bullet I was using. The only variable that was different was the bullet; I didn't make any change to the brass I used, the setting on the seating die, etc. That's why I thought the bullet might be the responsible factor. . . Also, I agree that this is too much variation in OAL, so I'm trying to figure out the reason.

This is a bit off-topic, but I have been working up a load with Blue Bullets, trying to decide between 147, 125 and 115 gr (all RN). I measured the OAL on all rounds I loaded, and there was a much higher standard deviation with 147. I was going for 1.130 OAL, and had a spread of 1.125 - 1.135 with 147 gr. For 115 gr, the OALs were spot on (1.129 - 1.131 OAL). Maybe this is related to the variation in bullet mass (I did not weigh the bullets)?

When I took a class with Vogel last year, I remember an interesting response when someone asked him a few specific questions about the offhand thumb. As many who have seen his videos or taken his class probably remember, he is a big proponent of applying inward force on the gun with both hands. I thought he was going to answer the question by saying that his offhand thumb was used as another point to apply that inward force on the gun. However, the answer was more subtle. I remember him saying that he tries not to apply inward force with the offhand thumb because it would steer the gun too much, but he also doesn't leave that thumb relaxed. Instead he pushes it strongly downward, to the point it contacts his index finger, because that motion really tightens the muscle at the base of his thumb and then that resulting muscle mass is his focus point for applying inward pressure on the gun with his offhand.

No question that grip strength is important, and all else being equal it would certainly be better to have more grip strength for handgun sports. However, the technique issue I'm trying to work through now is what in addition to the grip is important to recoil control? Through a combination of grip strength exercises, finding grips that best fit my hands (I use the CZ Scales), and using LiquidGrip, I run through mags without the gun shifting in my hands at all. However, I don't think I've yet optimized recoil control. This is why I think its interesting to hear what others are doing with their arms, shoulders, etc, to absorb the energy of the gun and drive it back on target as quickly and reproducibly as possible. Where the problem becomes even more challenging, IMO, is the interplay between grip and the rest of the body. For example, lets say you decided to use the Vogel approach and really apply shoulder and arm pressure to rotate both hands inward toward the base of the thumbs so you are choking the gun at the top of the grip. The more you rotate your hands, the less purchase your 3/4/5 fingers have on the grip. Now, do you still have enough hand strength to prevent the gun from moving in your hands? How do you find the best compromise? There have been a lot of interesting approaches to this problem discussed in this thread. . .

I will try playing with this because it never occurred to me to put pressure with the opposite rotation. Thanks for the suggestion. JR

Jake, tell me if I've got this correct. I took a class with Bob, and watched his videos, and I believe he is applying a huge amount of force to the top of his grip by applying inward rotational pressure (right hand rotating CCW; left hand rotating CW; trying to crush the grip between his hands) coming all the way from his shoulders through his elbows. Now, assuming I am representing his grip technique correctly, I'm trying to understand what the "opposite" rotation you are using is? It sounds like maybe you are "fixing" your elbows in place and rotating your shoulders the other way so you are trying to pull your hands off the gun. Maybe I'm way off?

rpacker: let me know if you decide you don't like the CZ Scales. I will buy them as I'm looking for a pair for my backup SP01. Thx, JR

"But, here's the, 'kicker'! In order to be able to truly compensate for a pistol's natural tendency to recoil and break towards the fingertips - which is the weakest part of everyone's grip - I found it to be imperative for me to: (1) ADOPT AN, '1/8TH HOMIE' GRIP on the pistol at precisely the same moment as I lowered my gun hand elbow; as well as to (2) SPLAY THE LOWER EDGE OF THE PALM OF MY SUPPORT HAND away from the pistol's frame by adopting Middlebrooks' (or Vogel's), 'open space' at the bottom of the support hand side-panel. Do it any other way; and you WILL sacrifice a certain amount of control over the pistol's muzzle." Some interesting ideas here ... I'm definitely going to try them out and see if they work for me. Thx, JR

Thanks Jake: very good stuff. Some of these suggestions I've heard before and have incorporated into my grip/stance, but some of these are new to me and I'm going to try them out. In particular, I like your approach to tension from hands through the rest of body. The issue of what should be tense vs. relaxed is is something I'm trying to work out for myself now. Another issue I'm still trying to work through, which I don't hear described much, is the strong hand palm/thumb area. The exception seems to be Seeklander who says (in one of his excellent videos) to put as much pressure into the back of the gun with the strong hand palm as possible. Brian and others talk about pointing both thumbs strongly forward, which as a consequence probably stiffens the right palm and makes a better support for the gun. Any thoughts ?

Been a while since I watched those Fist-Fire videos. I mostly remember Middlebrooks advocating a fully rolled-over and locked weak hand wrist which I thought was similar to what others suggest doing, but with different word cues that may work better for some shooters than others. I'm not sure if you are advocating something else here -- maybe an asymmetry in the arms where the weak arm is straighter and the strong arm elbow is bent and anchored to the body? I'd be interested in further details.

Since this thread seems to attract both CZ and Sphinx fans, does anyone know why CGW will no longer work on Sphinx? David posted a terse message that they will no longer perform gunsmithing on Sphinx, although they will continue to offer their springs, etc. I'm concerned that this is one more problem that can be ascribed to the US Sphinx importer (Kriss).

I tried to think about this when I shot this weekend, and it helped. But, still a long way to go for me. . .

PM me if you are going to sell the scales. I've been happy with the pair I have on my main gun, and want to put them on my backup gun as well.

+1 for Shooting Sports Innovation CZ Scales. I had been using the "lemon graters", and still the gun would move a bit in my hands during recoil. With the Scales, my grip remains rock-solid. I really wasn't expecting that much improvement when I ordered them, and was pleasantly surprised. . .