Anthony Lombardo

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3000/3049.htm Damn I am good!

The square bottom firing pin stop doesn't cause any more flip/recoil, in fact it will allow you to usually reliably run a lighter recoil spring. The flat bottom stop delays the unlocking by adding more mechanical resistance to the slide. Muzzle flip is caused by the slide hitting the frame. The square bottom stop slows slide velocity, thus should reduce flip. Variable springs? Waste of time and money. The job of a recoil spring is to strip a round and push your barrel via the slide into a consistent locked position every time. The variable spring lessens your closing pressure. Not a good thing! IMO-they are useful only for comp guns that already have delayed locking and are prone to short stroking with a conventional spring. John Browning designed the gun with a flat bottom stop for a reason. It was changed by US Ordnance so soldiers could more easily rack the slide....they had to move to a heavier recoil spring to try and compensate... If all you shoot are barely major loads at 170PF, a flat bottom stop is overkill. If you run hardball or +P with 8rd mags it will improve reliability. Guaranteed.

JB is the greatest genius to ever work on a 1911. Thats what. Once you take it apart, you will see..

That had to be "woody" he is some talented guy!

DW discontinued 10mm this year. Pretty sure I know why. To fix your gun. get a 22 # recoil spring and 25 (yes 25) pound officers hammer spring from Wolff and an EGW or Wilson square bottom firing pin stop. Get a Colt, Metalform or Tripp 10mm magazine. With a less than 5" gun, Silvertips are as hot as I would go.

I would see if Kimber would replace your frame. Eventually the crack will get bigger but the gun will run fine.

Are you running 2-piece guide rods? If so you might be torquing them too much.

Better sight picture-flat top slides have nice tall front sights

You always need a pocket holster to keep the lint out. Always!

You mean the place where people spout off unsubstantiated stuff and hearsay all the time?

I am not suggesting anyone drop the slide on anyone else's gun. They may have an improperly fit or dangerously worn action that exhibits hammer follow from slide lock. I would never drop the slide on someone else's piece for fear of follow and a potential AD. I once had a great friend whose carry gun was a worked over series 80 Colt. The "gunsmith" who built the gun came from a bullseye background and the hammer hooks were short. The gun followed every time you dropped the slide. If he had never checked it , how would he know? Would that be OK on anyones carry gun?????????????? When ever I get a NEW 1911, custom or otherwise I drop the slide numerous times to make sure it is safe. There are too many parts variables/home gunsmiths out there to take any chances. I don't sit around all day dropping the slides on my pistols but I don't wince when it happens.

A good way to test this is with a digital trigger gauge. test your trigger ten times by hand cycling. Drop the slide from slide lock (yes let it slam) and measure a few times. If it is measureably lighter it means your trigger is overcoming the sear spring resistance, bouncing against the disco and the sear nose is creeping out of the hooks. It could eventually expose hammer follow once parts wear further from normal use or spring tension decreases. If that is the case you need a lower mass trigger, heavier sear/hammer spring tension, or different sear angles. There will be NO damage unless the hammer follows and the sear nose hits the half cocks notch......... NONE. ZIP. NADA. ZERO point ZERO. The main difference between the action of the gun firing/not firing is that the trigger is disconnected while the slide is moving preventing trigger bounce. In ancient times, bullseye gunsmiths counseled shooters to hold the trigger back when loading to prevent trigger bounce. As you could imagine this ventilated many an indoor range ceiling. Most of the guns then used heavy, steel triggers with steel trigger shoes. The bullseye guns had hand filed, random parts of varying quality and precision. Holding the trigger back when loading and creating the mantra of "don't drop the slide-EVER" kept shooter's safe with the marginal equipment they were using. It is important to realize that you can change the "system" to the point where you can create an unsafe situation. For a light safe trigger, at minimum you need: An ultralight trigger with adequate pre-travel and also adequate overtravel Proper frame pin hole locations Straight hammer and sear pins of the correct diameter/hardness Sear/hammer spring with appropriate poundages and leaf lengths hard sear of proper geometry and length hammer hooks of proper height and geometry A hammer that doesn't overcock to a great degree, minimizing the Disconnector of suitable shape/length Negatively change any one of those variables and you can create hammer follow.

A good way to test this is with a digital trigger gauge. test your trigger ten times by hand cycling. Drop the slide from slide lock (yes let it slam) and measure a few times. If it is measureably lighter it means your trigger is overcoming the sear spring resistance, bouncing against the disco and the sear nose is creeping out of the hooks. It could eventually expose hammer follow once parts wear further from normal use or spring tension decreases. If that is the case you need a lower mass trigger, heavier sear/hammer spring tension, or different sear angles. There will be NO damage unless the hammer follows and the sear nose hits the half cocks notch......... NONE. ZIP. NADA. ZERO point ZERO. The main difference between the action of the gun firing/not firing is that the trigger is disconnected while the slide is moving preventing trigger bounce. In ancient times, bullseye gunsmiths counseled shooters to hold the trigger back when loading to prevent trigger bounce. As you could imagine this ventilated many an indoor range ceiling. Most of the guns then used heavy, steel triggers with steel trigger shoes. The bullseye guns had hand filed, random parts of varying quality and precision. Holding the trigger back when loading and creating the mantra of "don't drop the slide-EVER" kept shooter's safe with the marginal equipment they were using.

The question is whether or not it will damage a trigger job. Not barrel, slide or slide lock. Thats another discussion altogether. The gun collides all the time. Its designed to collide. The slide smacks the frame with so much force it actually bounces off it and uses that energy to strip the next round. With this reasoning all 1911's in 10mm, 40 super, 45 Rowland, .45 Super or .38 Casull caliber would self destruct after a few hundred rounds. The 1911 is one of the strongest handguns ever designed. It would NOT be in service after 100 years if dropping the slide on an empty chamber caused such widespread damage.

When the slide (regardless of the velocity)drops, the hammer doesn't smack into the sear. The hammer and sear are locked into place by the hammer spring holding pressure onto the sear nose via the hammer hooks. The only time the hammer hits the sear with any force that could cause any damage is after the gun is cocked by the inertia of the slide. If you hammer grossly "overcocks" because of improper fitting and crashes on your sear it could potentially damage your sear nose. That has nothing at all to do with dropping the slide on an empty chamber as it would potentiall cause the same damage every time you loaded and fired the gun also. The problem with the "don't drop your slide" mantra is that NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN HOW IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE. There is no "jarring", there is no "smacking" There is nothing. If you have an unsafe trigger from incorrect fitting, bad parts or wear and tear (or all of the above)you have an unsafe trigger. Dropping the slide just unmasks it. It doesn't damage it.

Real life experiences dont always come with testable hypotheses. I know enough to know that once hammer follow appears, the quickest way to exacerbate it is to keep testing for it. That is absolutely correct. But dropping the slide is not the cause of the follow. Thats the point.

I honestly have no idea whether Glock was aware of the amount of flex in the guide rod. It sure made my jaw drop when I saw it! Consider that they developed the plastic rod before really high speed video was commonly available and it might just be one of those things that worked out that way and has proven reliable. To add a little more to the picture it came about when some of our folks asked Glock what the acceptable slide speed range was for certain models. This happened after a reliability problem with a particular load in testing. Glock felt the problems were slide speed related, but they couldn't provide an actual range of what it should be...which was surprising. So, I'm not so sure they've done much high speed video work or they'd already know the answer to that question. All very interesting stuff Glocks are susceptible to slide speed problems because there is no hammer to crease resistance gainst slide unlocking. One reason the slide and barrel are so heavy and they really need that flat fire spring, in my opinion. I have also noted that Glocks work better with stock plastic rods. I think the rod bending creates a braking effect that slows the slide a bit. This a atotal WAG by the way (Wild Assed Guess).

I think these are some of the coolest rifles ever designed. I would love an old one with rotary mag in 30-30 or a 50's gun in 308

What I have learned form this thread is that a recoil spring may need to be fitted so it doesn't go to solid under recoil and beat the bushing or reverse plug out of the front of the slide. I have been doing this for years. Not all brands of 1911's are created equal. Not all guns have the same amount of tunnel space. Ismi's seem to need trimming about 25-50% of the time. Wolff's rarely need trimming but sometimes their wire/coil diameter is to great for some plugs and they don't always compress smoothly. There is no drop in part for a 1911, not even a spring. If you clip a 1911 coil spring, you slightly lower the rate, but its probably not significant in the "big picture". I found years ago if you run out of 18 lb Commander springs you can cut a 20# 5" spring and it will work OK. How's that for real world. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not an engineer although I did ride on a train once.

I had an old sear and hammer just laying around. And the thing is I didn't know beforehand it would get f'd up as bad as it did. But if you read Lombardo's post... nothing will happen unless it follows. It never followed. So the peaning of the sear was just my imagination. Maybe so. Or Maybe your hammer/sear weren't compatible? As I am sure you are aware, hammer and sear geometries are all across the map. If you take just any castoff hammer and sear from fifferent vendors and reduce the trigger to two pounds like you say you did well I would not be surprised that it followed the first try.

Again, as along as the hammer doesn't follow its moot. There will be no damage unless your parts are soft or have incorrect geometry (Burr on sear edge, burr on hammer face) in which case, normal shooting will cause the same damage. Taking a gun with a 2lb trigger (light sear spring tension) and dropping the slide with a heavy (>16 lb) recoil spring is asking for hammer follow based on sheer interia resulting in trigger bounce. It has little to do with engagment or geometry at those spring weights. The trigger stays stationary while the gun slaps together, the trigger trips the disconnector which carries the sear to the half cock notch. This Hammer follow is what causes the damage. Not dropping the slide. If you have a proper trigger job you can drop the slide on the same gun with a 10-12 pound spring all day long and it won't follow and won't cause any damage. Put more weight on the trigger and disconnector via the flat spring and you can keep the parts from moving and crashing into the trigger when you drop the slide. There is a formula for each gun based on many variables-trigger MASS, Trigger Pre-Travel, hammer/sear engagement, spring tension and inertia (caused by weight of recoil spring). You can run a heavy steel trigger if you have heavy spring tension, heavy engagment, and average recoil spring-this describes a mil-spec 1911. Slides were dropped thousands of times on these guns, safely. A lighter trigger (aluminum or even better plastic and ti) will give you more insurance hammer follow. More precise parts, mated to each particular gun's geometry will give you even more insurance. Lighter recoil spring (less inertai) will give you more insurance. I have proven this multiple times with multiple pistols. Its the follow, not the slide drop. Take a 1911 and run a sharpie on the hooks and sear nose. Drop the slide 100 times. It will be uneventful unless your hammer follows.

I do it all the time. As long as the hammer doesn't follow, its moot.

If this were the case every 1911 ever issued by the Government would have unsafe hammer/sear engagment due to sear nose peening. The slides on those guns were dropped thousands of times during the course of their lifetime and they all had heavy, all steel triggers. These guns slides were often dropped so much that slide stop pin holes are ovaled on well used examples. If slide velocity causes sear nose peening, how could a 10mm, 460 Rowland, .45 Super ever hold a trigger job? The round doesn't cushion the blow that much in a gun with a 24-28 lb recoil spring. GI guns have 15 pound nominal springs. Sear deformation is a result of incorrect angles, hammer follow or incorrect part hardness.

I just did a search and came up dry. Perhaps I should have done a search first, but I have come to this board multiple times a day for several years, and I have never come across a thread that will answer my question. I did find some threads that perpetuated a belief that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is a bad thing (but without any proof to back it up). I agree with Howard. Dropping the slide can identify a problem. But does that mean dropping the slide can cause a problem? Dropping the slide causes no damage whatsoever. Hammer follow to half cocok causes the damage. Dropping the slide repeatedly will damage your slide stop pin hole/barrel fit before it ever damages your hammer sear engagement. It just unmasks a bad situation like too little engagment, not enough spring tension, misaligned pin holes, incorrect hammer hook height, angle, finish, a multitude of sear issues.etc etc No one has ever shown evidence to the contrary. Its a gunsmith jedi mind trick. Its right up there with buy this full length guide rod.

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