SinistralRifleman
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Posts posted by SinistralRifleman
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Didn't anyone notice the team's name?
Somethingawful.com is a nerdy humor site with a large message board. There is a sub-forum called The Firing Range devoted to guns. The Awful Shooting Squad was formed for the Tiger Valley Team match in 2010. Out of all the guns forums on the internet, they fielded 3 teams at the most physically demanding environmentally brutal competition in the country. Their 3 teams were last, but at least they showed up.
Since then, they've gotten a lot more serious about competition and regular participate in matches on the east coast.
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As far as I know, if you've grounded the rifle described above - once you've moved three feet from it, it is a DQ in any ruleset.
If you were shooting under ACTS rules transitioning to your pistol to shoot the rifle targets you hadn't shot yet, then finishing the stage would be acceptable as long as you didn't break the 180. I hate moving with a slung long gun across the front so I generally hold it in my support hand and shoot pistol one handed. Unfortunately, ACTS is only currently in AZ and MI so you probably won't run into it.
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Russell, how easily you are seduced by the dark side. You have had latent open leaning tendencies this whole time, no matter how you try and suppress them. I see techwear in your future, no more dry earth or trooper tees for you! Embrace your open side. Ditch the pack and get a stroller.
LOL...Since I helped create it, I'm obligated to shoot trooper at any match I go to that has it until I am too old and messed up to do so. But by then, I'll have a weaponized variant of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_5 and be competing in Starship Trooper division.
Intresting, hopefully the lastest trend of $800+ saiga's don't continue when these come out.
They're selling for $630 with a sporter stock as of now. I'd snatch one up if I could afford it.
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K-VAR apparently has some new IZH-109BHO Saiga-12s. They magazines have slightly different followers that lock the bolt back automatically on the last shot. Mods apparently can be made to make it work with other mags; maybe AGP or Surefire will make a new follower.
With a last round bolt hold open, the need for a mag well should be significantly reduced as the challenge has always been rocking the mag in compressing the top shell against the closed bolt.
I'm going to have to buy another one of these now. Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in!!!!
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Or a lawyer being willing to challenge the whole "sporting purposes" thing in light of the Heller case ruling that self defense is a completely acceptable reason for having a firearm.
Wont work, the court will rule congress still has the right to regulate international commerce and that since guns can still be made domestically, that isn't a substantial infringement. Remember the sporting purpose aspect of the GCA was made to protect domestic manufacturers. Changing the law is the only way to do it; or convince them USPSA/3 Gun is a sporting purpose.
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The BATF has already stated publicly that competition in a "military or police" style competition does not constitute a "sporting purpose."
Yeah...in 1989. This recent document admits that sporting purposes can evolve over time and that it might be possible for USPSA/3Gun to be considered sporting purposes. You should read it in its entirety. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121918
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The only thing that would be of benefit is to have more Saigas used.
Detach mag fed shotguns are uncommon because of import restrictions and domestic manufacturers being scared of a DD ruling
because they are uncommon they are relegated to open division
because they are in open division only few people use them for 3 gun (relatively speaking)
because few people use them for 3 gun BATF states in this letter that it is hard to say if enough are being used to justify sporting use status (part of the argument).
If the Gun Control Act of 1968 hadn't happened, and then the 1989 import restrictions, everyone would be using mag fed shotguns today, and there would be a lot better more refined designs.
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Still have the spot for the mag drop bag on your belt or vest?
its on my belt
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I wanted to be top He-Man lady, but I'm too much of a wuss!
I think the proper term would be She-Ra: Princess of Power for top lady in that division.
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Those "reasons" sound more like "excuses" to me!!!, but I like shooting, its my only hobby right now so all my extra money goes to shooting, if you have other hobbies or a family thats cool spend your money on all of them, but realize that you shoot what you do because its what you want to do!! If you wanted to shoot Irons or HM, you would.
Trapr
LOL...this is all I do for fun (and I have no family or significant financial obligations). The equipment inconsistencies bug me more than the ammo cost.
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Don't you need way more caddys for ironman? Also, how are you gonna feed a Saiga with caddys?
I have a different vest for Saiga mags. My Kifaru EMR hold 120 pounds worth of stuff easily. This vest will sit in the pack until my Saiga explodes.
I have space to add one more shell carrier to that vest if necessary. 10 in the gun + 9 in side saddle + 24 on vest = 43 shells. The round count at Ironman is not what it once was, and there's also a lot of places to stage ammo on the course on tables more than there used to be.
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The costs to much thing confuses me, how much difference is there between the ammo costs and the optic on your rifle????? the hi cap mags on your belt over SS mags, the benefit of really only NEEDING to shoot one round on a lot of paper for rifle and pistol?????
Optics aren't consumables; you can use the same optic for many years on many different guns after you've run the guns into the ground.
Mags are consumables, but they generally last several hundred complete cycles before needing to be replaced.
Both are much different than every shot fired being $0.80 vs $0.35
Why do you need to only shoot one per paper? Because the holes are big enough to see?
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LOL...I guess I'm not the only one that bombed a stage or two.
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1) Its twice as expensive ammo wise; I have a hard time justifying spending more money when the end result of putting holes in paper or hitting steel targets is relatively the same for the sake of the game.
2) The rules in it change the most frequently from match to match and year to year.
If I end up getting a SCAR-H I would consider shooting it on occasion, but it wouldn't be my primary division to compete in.
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You stated about 50% more ammo then required and couple extra mags, can I ask what your layout is that your expecting to bring for MGM Ironman?
I'll get some pics. My primary is still going to be my Saiga. That vest will sit in my pack most of the time (hopefully).
SinistralRifleman always the innovator! It might even make me look slimmer.
Keep us updated with how this works out this year.
Trying out new stuff and refining ideas relative to equipment is half the fun of this stuff to me. Shooting matches provides a rapid feedback cycle of how well something worked not found anywhere else in shooting really.
So far its working well. I've shot 5 club level matches with it already.
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could you guys more in the know shed some light on what they were hinting at about rifles and/or handguns?
With rifles primarily that they must come in incapable of accepting military high cap mags, without muzzle devices, bayonet lugs that kind of thing...the imported guns that have them are converted after the fact by adding sufficient US Made parts.
With pistols its more complicated. There is a points system for pistols to be considered sporting for import; its why glocks have a shallow thumbrest for example.
If they rule that USPSA/3 Gun is sporting, all that stuff goes out the window; military suitable firearms are directly applicable for use in the action shooting sports; though we modify the hell out of them. This is a huge can of worms for them because they would suddenly be saying 22 years of import restrictions are no longer valid.
Would our sports have more legitimacy, legal-wise, if we were shooting at only the IPSC classic targets?
Food for thought.
I doubt it. With the prevalence of first person shooter games as a form of entertainment, I don't think what we're shooting at matters much.
Legitimacy is gained through increased participation, and increased spectator interest.
First Person shooter games were controversial in the mid 1990s...main stream today. Not much controversy anymore since the rating system was implemented
UFC is no longer an underground shady thing, its a main stream sport like boxing since they got a rule set and were sanctioned. I really don't think you can get more violent than 2 guys beating the hell out of each other.
Action Shooting has always had rule sets and governing bodies; there just never was any substantial media exposure until the last 3 years. While we shoot at humanoid targets; they aren't graphic representations of shooting real people, nor is anyone actually injured as a regular course of the sport.
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My take was they went to great effort to ignore the sporting purpose of 3 gun matches since they noted that these matches generated participation about the same as trap and skeet. And it also appears that they are also going to revisit what is a sporting purpose for rifles.
I think its clear that 3 gun is the elephant in the room, they're going to have to deal with eventually. But when they do it will effect the sporting purpose importation restrictions for all 3 guns; and they admit in this document that this wasn't the venue for such a ruling. I can understand why they don't want to deal with it here when it would have such far reaching implications. The document also states that sporting purposes can evolve over time.
If you read the document from 1989, it was much more hostile to the idea of "police combat games" being a sporting purpose. I see this as a possible step forward.
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I've been using carbine buffer systems with rifle gas systems for years, and it works fine. This with a rifle gas system just makes it that much closer to what the operating system was originally designed to do.
A rifle gas system has the lowest pressure
A rifle buffer/spring is the heaviest (generally)
A carbine gas system is the highest pressure
A carbine buffer/spring is the lightest (generally)
Anything to get the total system closer to the original lower pressure gas system and heavier buffer is better IMHO. A carbine will never be less reliable because it has a heavier buffer with its already over gassed system, and a rifle is not going to be less reliable with a lighter buffer/spring.
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The scary thing is I've read enough BATF regs and the USC and paid an attorney enough money that I actually understand what they're saying and it doesn't seem like it just came out of nowhere anymore. I won't necessarily agree, but I'll see how they got it out the statute.
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My take is they are saying the things currently imported are OK, but establishing limits on what can be imported so manufacturers and importers don't have to guess each time.
It also made me feel much more optimistic about USPSA/3 Gun being a sporting purpose some day. The more people doing it the better; the more media coverage the better. It was certainly more open to the idea than the previous rulings I read from 1989.
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Sorry if this belongs elsewhere, but it applies to Saiga-12s particularly:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
Highlights
In particular, the working group examined participation in and popularity of practical shootingevents as governed by formal rules, such as those of the United States Practical Shooting
Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC), to determine
whether it was appropriate to consider these events a “sporting purpose” under § 925(d)(3).
While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other
shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not
appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is “sporting” under
§ 925(d)(3). A change in ATF’s position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle
and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough
and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally
recognized sporting purpose.
The working group also considered “practical shooting” competitions. Practical shooting eventsgenerally measure a shooter’s accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while
negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally
stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are
moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and
handgun competitions, as well as “3-Gun” competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on
one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and
attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the
respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical
shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical
Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see
31 Gilbert
if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate “sporting purpose” under section
925(d)(3).
The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events
throughout the United States.32 While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of
members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,33 organizations involved in shotgun
hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more
members than any of the target shooting organizations.34 Because a determination on the
sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of
those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study
to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for
purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns
because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on
practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting
suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain
practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally
recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,
practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.
Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect
of the practical shooting competitions.
In regard to sporting purposes, the working group found no appreciable difference betweenintegral tube magazines and removable box magazines. Each type allowed for rapid loading,
reloading, and firing of ammunition. For example, “speed loaders” are available for shotguns
with tube-type magazines. These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells
and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a
detachable magazine.
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Most of the double AR mag pouches on the market should work, but you probably don't want to deal with a flap.
I don't know how well a traditional pouch with the mag upside down will work. With most of the weight in the bottom (then upside down), and the pouch clamping on the skinnier area, I can see it working its way loose when running.
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At the Independence Day match last year we ran one steel stage where battle rifle cartridges only needed half as many hits. The stage times were pretty similar between .308s and .223s. We did require a lot of awkward shooting positions though.
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I hope that you don't need to get it out of your pack.
If I don't bring it, the range demons will punish me for my insolence and my Saiga will fail in some new and exciting way. I've heard of AK bolt carriers coming off the rails and hitting the user in the face. I'm expecting something like that to happen.
Are Saiga 12s being banned?
in Shotgun - Technical
Posted
The gun community as a whole seriously lacks reading comprehension. Everything from posts on forums to GOA's and NRA's press releases about this have just been full of misinformation and conjecture.
Saigas as is are fine. This BATF opinion letter is actually the most positive thing I have EVER seen out of BATF; they admit that sporting purposes can evolve over time, USPSA/3Gun could be a sporting purpose in the future, AND detach magazines are not inherently unsporting.
...instead somehow people are reading it as if BATF is "making new laws" and Saigas are going to be banned.