Carlos

SharonAnne has offered excellent advice - as have the others. Welcome to the sport! As for cleaning the barrel of your Para, you might consider giving it up altogether. Look at the main USPSA website and click on the sponsor link for Schuemann Barrels. Then, go to Will's thoughts on cleaing. Read it over and you decide. I never clean the bore anymore - ever, just the chamber. My STI shoots as accurately as anything else out there. Would I do the same w/ my .223?? Of course not, but w/ my pistol, I do what works. Again, welcome. D.

Also, I load to 1.260" - abou the same as I would for 230 RN but keep in mind that there is slightly more room under the 200 at the same given OAL (thus safer). Also, If you have accuracy problems, try lightening the crimp. I overcrimped some plated bullets once - I think htey were Speer Gold Dots - and accuracy went downhill.

Thanks Eric! Just what I was looking for. Oh well. Perhaps I will try the recommended VV N330 or titegroup.

Still waiting for more info HOWEVER - if its a 6.5 semi then its likely the Ljungman 10 round semiauto surplused from the Swedish military. Very accurate with REAL 6.5x55 ammo - not the US made crap which is undersized b/c its based on the 30-06 case- use Norma or Lapua brand brass only. Rifle costs about $500 on the surplus market. Uses direct gas system like the AR-15. Similar to the Egyptian Hakim rifle but MUCH better quality. In Sweden and Norway, we used the 6.5 on deer and moose - though be sure to use the right bullets for big game - again Lapua og Norma only. At one time, this round was the darling of 1000 yard target shooters and it has much better BC generally than .30 cal match bulllet. You are right about .260 - balisticallty very similar but capable of hotter loads since its a new round while the CIP (SAAMI in USA) has to limit 6.5 due to Swedish mausers over 100 years old - even though they can take it - Swedish steel is supperior to German mauser steel and thus stronger.

One creative way to fight this might be w/ political correctness . . . try joining a "breast cancer information/support/charity group. The filter will likely object to the word "breast" as related to porn - this happened to AOL a while back. When you get the filter response, storm up to the most senior person you can find and demand an official appology for accusing you of viewing porn, demand everyone in the computer dept, be sent to mandatory sensitivity training, claim you feel "violated" by a soul-less computer (and maybe just throw in the demand that the filter be removed entirely). Management will seek the least expensive way to shut you up - remove the filter. They could also fire you, but that might risk a discrimination suit which might ultimately prove expensive. Fight the power! - BTW, we miss you around here. D.

BTT. Also, what about VV N310 for 9mm minor? Thoughts??

Gingerbreadman - you there? So, more info?

Yep -that has been my load for about 3000 Westcoast 200 RNs; 4.5 to 4.6 grns of straight, plain old Clays and winchester LP - no pressure signs to worry about. Its the .40 cal that has real problems w/ clays - the .45 does not generate enought pressure to cause big problems w/ this powder at 165PF.

Fear not intrepid reloaders and die-hard BE'ers! Federal replied! Problem Solved!! Amazing Dillon-esq customer service!! Here is the comprehensive reply from our esteemed friends at Federal: "This type of cartridge works with our non toxic primer combination for optimal performance." Thank you, Federal, thank you so very much. Could the response have been more patronizing if they tried? D. Top experts do not agree. (Edited by Carlos at 11:20 am on Dec. 12, 2002)

CAT - same thing happened to my HS rifle team back in 84 - we shot off campus at an NG armory for a year before the headmaster pulled the plug altogether - he hated guns. Then they fired him a few years later but the rifle program was and is history. Sad really. Anyway, you did not say what you want to do w. the rifle - informal target practice, competition, etc. If its competition, the AR-15 in .223 Winchester (aka 5.56mm) rules the roost; do a search on google on Glen Zediker and AR-15 and you will find a comprehensive book on highpower shooting - written by a former .30-06 and then a .308 shooter. As for the 30-06, it is great, I have an old P-17 US made Enfield a gun that saw more action in WWII than the 1903 and it is stronger to boot. I like it, but you might consider a .308 for greater accuracy. Look around on http://www.snipercountry.com for an article on the .308 vs the 30-06. Unless you are hunting really large game then you could do everything w/ a .308 - and have better accuracy potential as well. Ask 10 shooter what rifle to get and you'll get atr least 10 answers; tell us more about what you would like to do. Welcome in the mean time. Top experts do not agree. PS - if you join USPSA (IPSC in the US) you can qualify to buy a US made, government surplus 1903 at a very reasonable price. There should be a link to a private company called CMP/DCM that was once a part of the Gov. designed to promote civilian marksmanship. Check it out.

""...and I would prefer it to stay that way. Save the Cooper / John Moses Browning worship for the funny papers, er, gun rags."" I am w/ Eric 100%. Now that we dare blaspheme the name of cooper, are we in danger of being struck by lightning?

Sent this directly to Federal w/ link to this discussion. No, I do not expect them to make any changes - I challenge Federal to surprise me. Not holding my breath. "Hello Federal! Please take a look at the discussion about your new NT product on the Brianenos.com website forum. In short, we do not understand why you choose to use small pistol primers on your new NT brass for .45. Other companies have made non-toxic ammo WITHOUT the use of small primers so I do not believe that you were required to use small primers. Was it a cost consideration? Understandable, but still unfortunate for we who reload. Please consider discontiuing this type of .45 brass. Very best regards, Douglas C. Johnson

Makes sense to me - and I pointed out, there were 10 round mags sold for the .410 Saiga. I know the russians make 8 and 10 round mags for the 12 - they just do not sel them here. For those wishing to give this a go, good news: CDNN just slashed the price of the 20 gauge to only $ 169.99. So you are looking for a limited gun? Turns out the cheapest one is also the best / fastest reload out there? Could this be too good to be true? You tell me.

As to no .38 super/9x23 in revolver, that is what I thought. Rulebook seems pretty clear ".357 Magnum for major". I realize that .45 would be the way to go anyway - I understand that a moonclip of FMJ RNs practically jumps into the cylinder on its own. Will save that $60 for somethjing else and just shoot the 686 as is. Banjo Bart - is that you? How's that Winchester leather jacket working out? Good to see you here & welcome. The Safariland belt and magholders went to a new shooter/old friend up in Maryland - thanks, he is putting them to good use!

One compensator factor that WILL change your group size and POI is the tension used to install a threaded comp. Browning used a system called BOSS a few years back (and maybe they still do) which allowed one to adjust the tension on the barrel - and thus "tune" the tension to achieve a specific barrel harmonic, by trial and error, a shooter could shrink group size with a thinner, lighter barrel. The same thing can happen w/ a comp; the tension used to install it can affect a barrel - generally more pronounced the lighter the barrel is. For highpower, we used to loosen our flash suppresors and instal them finger tight w/ green locktite. CAUTION: if your comp lacks tension, it could shoot loose w/ disasterous results. This game (USPSA/IPSC) is all about inovation and invention, but if you are going to expirament w/ comp tension, make damn sure that comp will stay on the rifle no matter what.

"And I wouldn't put it past some assinine gun-control organization to claim that IDPA shooters are violating the law when they draw from concealment at a match, and that they're "training to be terrorists/spree-shooting psychos/murderers","" I thought that many IPSC nations had prohibitions on anything that might be construed as "military or police training" and that is why IPSC is based around the classic or amoeba target and lacks anything resembling a window, door, hallway, etc. while here in the US, targets still have heads and stages can resemble whatever we want. I agree that your quote is not only possible, there is even a foreign model for such laws. No interest in seeing USPSA become "PC".

Erik wrote: ""I'll bet you'll wear out your pistol barrel more by cleaning it with a wire brush than by shooting brass jackets through it." Well at least one guy out there agrees w/ you Erik: look at this website under barrel cleaning: http://www.schuemann.com This guy makes barrels for a living - in fact, he makes IPSC/USPSA and IDPA barrels for a living. Lots of barrels. Are his barrels any good? Well, look at: http://www.sviguns.com These guys build guns. IPSC and IDPA guns. Lots of guns. Are they any good? Dunno - you decide (I own 2 of their guns BTW). They seem to think that Will Schuemann knows a thing or two - - at least about barrels he makes. I don't clean my barrels either Erik. Guesse there are at least 2 of us who agree. As for the rest of the world, decide for yourself; clean if you want to - won't bother me one bit if you do.

Recently bought a used 686 and got a spare, unused cylinder from CDNN. I considered having it reamed to 9x23 after reading about such a conversion on http://www.pistolsmith.com onthe 9x23 forum. I think it was $60 from maybe Cylinder and slide? I think moon clips might be faster to relaod than traditional setup. Wht did Micluk use in SA? Anyway, would it be allowed as "Major"?? The rulebook states .357 Magnum is the minimum cartridge for Major - I assume to prevent people from overloading the .38 Special. I believe the 9x23 is even shorter than the special, and it can certainly meet the major powerfactor with greater eas than say 9x19 (which will also work). Just thinking of having 2 guns to shoot same ammo - may open auto and a 686. Any thoughts?

Sorting .45 range brass last night revealed several of the (realtively) now Federal Non Toxic cases w/ headstamp "Federal NT 45 Auto" and you guessed it - small pistol primer pockets! Just to test, I de-capped one of these cases and loaded a small pistol primer into the 650 and sure enough, it seemed to prime just fine - have not fired any to test. I can imagine this being a hassle if I happen upon one or several of these during a run on the speed demon Dillon 650 - it will slow things for sure and probably ruin a LP primer in the process - oh well, one more thing I have to look for prior to loading. Alternatively, if I find enough of these, I might load them up for "lost brass" matches.

Duane - have not seen the USA manufactured WWII steel cases in years - though you could reload them several times w/o problem and they worked just fine despite the really old wives tales about them. As for the Russian Wolf - yes the .45 ACP cases are FULLY RELOADABLE boxer primed and no, the primer is not crimped in. This is not the case for all the cases they make - e.g. the 9mm is berdan. I posted the reloading forum about this approx 1 yr ago but the post seems to have dropped off (did a search). Jist is that I found cracks in about 10% of the cases after 1 reload w/ spikey Clays powder in .45 Yes, the steal is mild and much softer than the nickle plate on the plated stuff that lotsa guys shoot - don't know why people are so afraid of mild steel yet will shoot nickle plated cases all day. Breach face scoring? New one to me. Where did that info come from? Would like to check it out. Thanks, D.

Nik is on the money - buy the arrendondo. I think soem of our European friends also had solved the problem by coating a dillon charge bar w/ teflon or something. But since arrendondo sells the fix and could get it to you via overnight, buy theirs.

TommyC - Welcome and keep it up; good to see someone overcome adversity (as in University tuition x2!) to come out and shoot our sport. If cost is a consideration; let me pass on the ways I save $$$ shooting .45 (I assume the CC is a .45): About the least expensive powders to use are Tightgroup from Hodgdon or Promo (which is really just a form of Red-dot - check w/ company for free data). Both of these are ditry but they are failly fast and will work OK - not great but OK. I pay a little more for Clays in 4 and 8 lb jugs. Its clean and works GREAT. I personally do not like lead reloading bullets for many reasons but at least one BE'er in the NW used to buy lead .45 for something like $15 to $20 thousand. Buffalo bullets comes to mind - anyone recall who the was? Shooter Grrrrl maybe? I work at a range and get brass for free, but even if you are just a customer, you could ask an indoor range and they might give you a bucket to sort out the .45 if you promise to bring back the rest. I have even reloaded the steel cased Russian Wolf stuff once - it tends to split after more than two reloadings but will otherwise work in a pinch. I buy my corncob or walnut media at feed stores for a lot less than mail order or gun stores. At big USPSA matches, you will often find Win LP primers for $70 for 5000 and powder without the haz-mat fee; many dealers will take pre-match orders and deliver without the haz-mat on powder and primers. Regards, D.

Yeah, the Winchester Range practice ammo we sell is brass, not copper. Its the stuff you find at indoor ranges sold without a box- it comes that way in 1000 round lots from Winchester - there is only a 50 round styrefoam block to hold the ammo. We rent guns too - thousands upon thousands of these rounds go downrange each month - especially through the Glocks. If barrel wear were a big concern, none of our rental guns would have rifleing left - they all shoot just fine though - including 92s, 1911s, Sigs, S&Ws, etc. Brass is just fine. Hardness tester is the only way to say for sure and it might change some minds about material hardness- incluiding mild steel used in bullet jackets.

If true, that club needs an attitude adjustment. Only 35 or so states have "shall issue" laws; besides I can be in 4 states and the district w/in 1.5 hrs drive - what about competitors from other areas who cannot get CCWs? Its easy for residents of a shall issue state to look down on those living in less reasonable states - the thinking goes something like "well those people should just move out of X state!!" How reasonable is that??!? Requireing a CCW for an IDPA match is really out of line. Encouraging all club members to apply for a permit? Sure, that's a fine idea, but a requirement is TOO MUCH.

Have owned & shot an Edge for close to 2 years now; for the sport of USPSA, and limited class, the Edge is about as good as it gets. Sure, I like my Glocks and they <can> shoot well; its just that the Edge is easier to shoot fast and more forgiving of mistakes. I paid 1000 for mine used, with ZERO mags since it had been converted over to single stack by previous owner (long story). Looks like you are getting a deal.