Chris Christian

+1 to the 147 in 9mm, although you may need to re-spring your gun to reliably handle them. I shoot a standard M&P and have no problems with a 147 grain@880 fps. IMHO it is softer than 115s and 124s at the same PF, and does drop steel better than the lighter slugs. I do think that most of the top 9mm shooters in IDPA or USPSA Production use 147 for those reasons. Chris Christian

Returning to the OP. I know it was not a IDPA legal stage. But, if it was a single COF with only those steel targets involved, with each competitor carrying the maximum amount of ammo for their gun division, and if the COF said steel must fall to score...and if competitor elected to stop shooting at the standing targets while they still had ammo from their basic starting supply available to them... then it could be concluded that they elected to stop firing because the points down per target would result in less time in penalties than they would have taken in reloading, shooting, and continuing to miss. I would consider that a FTDR... even if all targets had been engaged and the miimum round count per that COF had been fired. Paper targets are a totally different matter because they can't be scored until the range is clear and shooting has stopped. A shooter can only be expected to engage them with the minimum number of rounds recquired and let the scores fall where they may. Falling steel is different. It can be determined by the shooter while shooting. As for a later poster noting "interpretation of the rules". I agree that clarity is needed in the rule book. I just returned from FL IDPA State, and shooters were given procedurals on one stage for reloading from an established shooting position that used cover correctly... and not dropping back fully behind cover to reload and move to the next shooting position, even though they had engaged all targets visible from that position, and were reloading from the same position that they just used to shoot them that did not result in a cover call. The rule book specifically states that a shooter may do so. Here, it was 3 seconds, based on a rule book passage that ignored the clarifying passage noted above. Chris Christian

I think some posters missed my point regarding revolver friendly/neutral... the point was that they don't... with a few exceptions... exist so there is no point in worrying about it. Revolver shooters, what few there are, are used to that concept. Chris Christian

Someone in an earlier posted noted that "IDPA was set up to be revolver friendly". As a IDPA EX class SSR revo shooter (will make MA next classifier)I can assure him that there is no such thing as a "revolver friendly" COF, unless the stage is six rounds or less... other than that they are all just "revolver survivable". If you're shooting a wheelgun it doesn't make any difference whether the COF is Vickers or Limited Vickers... for revo shooters they're all Limited. Christ Christian

The 629 is going to be over the 42 ounce weight limit for Stock Service Revolver, although it should be under the 50 ounce weight limit for ESR. The 686 would be a better bet if you wantto use onegun for both divisions. Chris Christian

You need 851 fps with a 147 to make a 125 PF. WSF is an excellent powder. Depending upon the gun I would suggest 3.6 to 3.9 grains to get around 880 fps... you do need to chrono. Very soft and very clean with every 147 grain bullet (jacketed or lead)I've used it with in M&Ps and CZs. Chris Christian

I have some limited hands on experience with the .327 Federal from a SP101. It does recoil less than a .357, and ballistically it's on par with a 115 9mm +P that is fired from a four inch barrel semi-auto. But, ammo is still hard to find. I would not sneer at a .357 SP101. Solid, reliable, enough weight to absorb recoil and it points well. I carried one for years. I would avoid shoving .357 Magnums into it. The Speer 135 grain Short Barrel .38 Spl +P JHP was developed at the specific request of NYPD to be used in their short barrel revolvers. They are very happy with it's performance in the field. It has noticably less recoil than any .357 Magnum. One advantage to the .357 over the .327 is that .38 Special practice ammo is much easier to find (WW White Box 130 grain standard pressure is very close to POI compared to the Speer, in the guns I have tested it in). As for revolvers having more malfunctions than semi-autos, I can only say that I've been shooting both for over 40 years in the field and competitive events and cannot agree. Semi-autos can have a number of "jams"... (some related to gun, some magazine, some ammo)... that will take the gun out of action until corrected... and jam clearing drills (rack & tap, etc) can be learned. Revolvers don't normally suffer those.. at least as long as your coil main spring(Ruger) hasn't been lightened to the point where it won't light off a primer. When a revolver does have a rare malfunction it is normally of the catastrophic type... squib load leaving bullet in barrel, or bullet "walking out of the case" under recoil to tie up the cylinder. With quality ammo and minimal maintenance those are so rare that I have never experienced one... although I have seen and heard of them. The SP101 will deliver five good rounds reliably and quickly. If you can live with five, it's a good choice. If your wife likes the gun and can hit with it, you have a great choice. Chris Christian

As a number of other very experienced IDPA shooters (some of whom are State or Regional champions) have already stated, don't worry about embarrasing yourself. You will only achieve that distinction if you assume you're going to hit the ground running... blaze away... and smoke all the top shooters. You won't smoke them, but you will run the risk of getting out of control and getting DQed for a safety violation. That's embarrassing! If you approach your first IDPA match as a learning experience... shoot at a pace that is within yourself, even if it seems much slower than the other shooters... ask questions of the SOs and experienced shooters (believe me, they're more than willing to help a new guy!)you'll have a lot of fun, learn a lot, and be on the road to being a much better shooter. Every one of us was a "new" IDPA shooter at some point in time, and can thank the experienced shooters for getting us onto the right track. It is a very enjoyable sport, populated by a lot of nice people. You'll have fun. Chris Christian

Index is great if the target isn't more than five yards way. Beyond that, sight alignment is a help, and at 15 yards+... almost a necessity. Work some Gunsite Drills with a timer, analyze your time & score... figure out why you "screwed the pooch"... and then why you quickly tapped 2 As... continue to do the latter... and you can adjust to a new gun grip angle pretty quickly. Chris Christian

The grip angles do differ. But, if your shot trigger is front sight alignment on the target, practicing the draw & presentation will get you where you need to be. It may be a little difficult to shift back and forth between the two guns every week, but if you spend time with one, it'll get there. I shift between revolvers, M&P semi-autos, and sometimes a CZ-85. It doesn't take long to adjust to the different guns. My favorite "fast fix" is 15 and 25 yard Gunsite Drills, with some 10 yard Bill Drills thrown in. Chris Christian

Checking the cylinder latch screw should be normal cleaning/maintenance on the GP-100. It's the only screw on the gun that can cause problems. A large flat tip jewelers screwdriver is best. It will back out on you. If that is not the problem, and you are shooting lead bullet reloads.... (1) check your sizing die and make certain you are getting full length case resizing, and that your crimps are smooth. (2) Check your chambers to see if you are building up a big lead firing ring. If so, scrub it out. If the ring is massive, brush some Kroil into each chamber and let it sit overnight, then hammer it with a stainless steel spiral brush. (3) make certain your primers are seated fully, slightly below flush... a high primer can... maybe... cause problems. Unburnt powder under the extractor star is a possible problem, and in light loads with 231 (or HP-38) it might be a factor because you may not be getting a full burn. But, those are my two primary powders for .38 Spl 125PF loads with 158 grain lead bullets, and at the 4.6 to 4.9 charge weights I'm using (that much is needed to make 800 fps minimum ... 125 PF... in my four inch GP-100) it has not been any kind of a problem. I would look at cleaning and reload quality first, because the GP-100 is one rugged and reliable revolver. Chris Christian

You can also use the 625 in IDPA ESR Div if it has a barrel no longer than 4 -inch. One gun would then work for USPSA & IDPA. It just depends on finances. But, if you start with the GP-100 you already have you save some bucks, and if you find revolver is not for you, you're not out much in the way of money. I prefer the GP-100 over S&Ws from a mechanical standpoint, but that's just my personal opinion. I've won IDPA trophies with both. Wilson Combat makes a spring kit for the GP-100 that is very nice. Mine has a butter-smooth 8 pound DA pull and will light off primers other than Federal. I suggest you see if you can play with both and pick what you, and your wallet, prefer. Revolver... whether IDPA, ICORE, or USPSA is a lot of fun... especially when you start beating a bunch of the semi-auto crowd. Chris Christian

Go to Safariland Comp III speedloaders. They are head & shoulders above HKS. I've used both. You may have to modify the factory square butt grips slightly to work with them, but the factory round butt grips are good to go as is. Check with Blade Tech and see if they can do a drop holster for a 6 inch GP-100. Safariland makes three slot holders for their Comp IIIs and they work well. I use them for USPSA (just remove the little insert in each that is intended for Comp II use). If you want to make Major in a 6 inch, check Hodgdon's loading manual... Longshot, or H4227 is likely to get you the 925 fps you need from .38 cases with a lot less recoil than you might expect... and I suspect other "medium" burn rate powders will as well. I'm running Speer 180 TMJ Silhouette bullets and Hornady 180 grain XTP at 770 fps (for Minor... I only need 695 fps) from a four inch with the same (or slighly less recoil) than a 158 grain to the same 125 PF. Add two inches of barrel and another grain or so of powder and you're likely at 925, with very little recoil increase from the heavier gun. My four inch weighs 39 ounces and Ruger says the 6 inch goes 45 ounces. My 4 inch gun is geared to IDPA, where I spend my serious match/travel dollars. But, if I was serious about USPSA I'd run a 6 inch with the 925 180 loads, and may actually do that if I get a few extra bucks and some motivation. Chris Christian

Not to forcefully disagree with the previous posters who advocate your buying the 625... but since you already have a GP-100 I'm wondering why you don't start with that?.... see how you like revolver... and go from there. That puts you about $600 (?) ahead of the curve to start with. I shoot a GP-100 in IDPA (Expert now, will make Master next classifier) and use the same gear on those infrequent occasisons that I shoot USPSA. I'm upper C Class there with the Ruger and Minor loads. You didn't mention what your barrel length is, but you can make Major (if you feel it is an advantage) with a 180 grain slug at 925 FPS. From a 4 inch barrel there is an increase in recoil. From a 6 inch tube it's negligible. If you reload, these 165 PF loads are easy to make in .38 cases as long as you shoot them in a .357 gun (they are above +P in pressure at 925 fps). With your existing GP-100 you only need a holster (I like Blade Tech), 6 or 7 Comp IIIs, and enough speedloader carriers to hold them. That's a wallet friendly way to see how you like revolver. If you are POSITIVE that revolver is for you... then by all means open the wallet, go to the 625... send it to Carmony so that it will work right (not all 625s do from the factory)... load 230 grain slugs to 740 fps (lead if your barrel will shoot them, many that I've seen in 625s won't give decent accuracy with lead... the GP-100 likes lead) get the clips, clip loading tool, holster, clip carriers, and have fun. But, you might save some money and time if you start with what you have and see where your passion carries you. Chris Christian

The S&W M&P comes with an ambidexrous slide release. The magazine release (from the factory) is located on the left side, but it is easily reversible to the right side. That makes it a true Southpaw gun. I have seen a number of upper level shooters (IDPA Master & EX, and USPSA M, A & who used to shoot Glocks... shifted to the M&P... and shot better. The M&P is available in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP (check the S&W website for current models, but they have 5 inch Pro Model versions in 9mm and .40 S&W). Trigger work and after market sights are readily available and not expensive. They're good guns, and I've won a pile of IDPA trophies with my 9mm standard and .45 ACP. If you are having Southpaw problems, this might be a way to solve them. Chris Christian

You are correct.... my apologies to the forum. I'm done on this thread. Chris Christian

Ken, Thanks for clearing that up, i.e... IDPA Forum not an official site. As a SO who runs two squads/matches a month I try to be as keenly aware of the rules as I can. Since the IDPA Forum (as you have finally acknowledged) is not an official rules site, I now know that... regardless of the question... I need go to the printed Rule Book that lives in my range bag. I'm sure that the IDPA Forum is well intentioned, but unless it officially supercedes the printed Rule Book that every member receives... and more importently... supercides it in a manner that every member can access... (I still can't gain access, even as a SO)... the printed Rule Book has to be the Bible. I'm not a lawyer, but I can only imagine what might occur if a shooter traveling to a Sanctioned Match spent time, entry fee, travel expenses (motels, restaurants fuel or airline fares, etc) and abided fully by the Rule Book... only to be DQed because of a blog entry on a non-official web site. WHEW!... talk about a fine civil suit! So... Ken,... thanks for alerting people that the IDPA Forum is a nice place to visit, but is not an official rules site. Chris Christian

Ken, Not playing dumb at all. I am unable to currently access that site, despite my best efforts. My questions to you still remain for you to answer (1) Is this an official IDPA site that overrides the printed Rule Book?, and (2) If not, why would anyone pay attention to it? Your response is eagerly awaited, and since you are a Moderator on this site I would assume I could get an accurate answer to those two simple questions. Thanks! Chris Christian

Boats, As I understand it... a fumbled mag dropped onto the ground during a reload could be picked up beore a shot is fired, without a penalty. If your club has a rule on dropped mags that contradicts this it is not in accordance with the IDPA rule book. If a malfuction during a reload occurs(from page 41 Rule Book.. second para down from top of page) MALFUNCTION CLEARING EXCEPTION: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty". That, of course, is from the printed Rule Book that every member gets. Don't know what the non-official web sites say about that. Chris Christian

Ken, Thanks for that bit of info. But, I am still unable to access it. And, I still have the question as to (1) is this an IDPA official site for rules clarfications that SOs (my being one) need to follow? (2) If not, why pay attention to it as opposed to the printed Rule Book that every IDPA member receives.... which do you follow? Any info on those two questions would be appreciated. Thanks! Chris Christian A23489 Certified SO

Koski has it nailed, as I understand it. But, one factor not mentioned, as I understand it is... if an ammo reloading device ( magazine or speedloader) malfunctions during a reloading attempt then that malfunctioning device... and any ammo in it... can be discarded and not picked up, without penalty. Should a malfunction occur, the shooter is then free to drop magazine, clear revolver chambers, without having to pick those rounds up, and may run a new ammo loading device into the gun without a penalty for failing to pick up the rounds/magazine involved in the malfunction. At least, that's what I glean from the Rule Book. But, I'm not privy to the latest Yuku rulings, so the Rule Book (as printed and in effect) is what I would have to go by when SOing a match. Chris Christian

Jane, I was unable to access the links you provided for the rules update regarding dropped magazines. As an IDPA SO I would like to have that information, but I seem to be denied it via the Yuku system. Is that an official IDPA site? If not, is there an official IDPA site that I could access to see those rules clarifications? Thanks, Chris Christian A23489 SO

You didn't mention the calibers you'll be reloading, but generally speaking, if you are making target-type loads and not running at the upper pressure limits you won't have problems with mixing quality brass like Remington, Win, Fed or Speer. I would avoiad any nickle plated brass because it has a shot life span compared to brass cases. The only other factor is if you are loading right on the minimum PF line -- different headstamps can have slightly different internal volumes and produce differing velocities. One headstamp may be fine, while another chronos slower. This is very noticeable with .38 Spl... not so much with 9mm and .45. Chris Christian

This is probably going to get me in trouble, but I've been there before. "Gamers?" I've heard a number of definitions. The one I like the best is "A gamer is what IDPA Marksmen call IDPA Masters". As for "martial arts"... the term denotes one who is proficient in martial matters. Many think of "martial arts" as Asian techniques (Chinese Kung Fu, the various forms of Japanese Karate, Ju Jitsu, Ninjitsu, etc). But, many other countries have their own versions of martial combat techniques. The Russians have Sambo, the French have Savate and knife fighting, the Filipinos have a two handed butterfly knife discipline, the English developed bare knuckle boxing (sounds old fashion, but see how long you last against an expert if he gets close enough to strike you),and there are others. The only true American martial art is pistol craft... gun fighting. The American developed techniques of pistol craft have now spread worldwide. It's a matter of employing the gun quickly, accurately, and repeatably, from common on the body carry positions. So, a martial gamer is an odd... but maybe accurate... term. If you are running an IDPA COF (or even USPSA) you are practicing a martial art. I went through a LFI 1 class with a Seventh Dan karate black belt who had very limited handgun experience. At the end of the course, he agreed that pistol craft is a martial art. Chris Christian

+1 to that. I have put a timer on revolver reloads at various movement speeds (I shoot a speedloader gun, so take that into consideration as a clip gun can be a bit different). I find that smooth movement makes a smooth reload without losing a round from bouncing on the run. A moderate movement pace to the next shooting position doesn't impede a reload, but if I try to run fast Mr. Murphy often shows up and puts me behind the curve. Chris Christian