Boats

Duane Thanks good tip. Trigger is one of the keys that for sure. Have a separate program on trigger control, mostly Bill drills and allowing the trigger to re-set not slapping. Taking the slack out is something ingrained from years of two stage service rifle trigger shooting. Had not thought much about it for stock pistols. But my 12 sec is for half of Stage III string 1 Whole string yesterday was mostly around 24 sec. I can shoot it faster but am slowing down trying to hit every time. Ideal for me is to crank up the speed drawing mag changes moving etc but still maintain good trigger control. Reason I am fussing over the grip index & position so much is I need it to make up for other deficiencies. Old eyes mostly, plus as a long time rifle competitor I trust good alignment and position and know how important it is. Once I get positon and movement down to routine will not think about it again. Boats

Thanks was planning to send the pistol to speed shooter for a trigger job anyway. Who is ISMI ? Boats

My favorite target load for the 9mm is 4.6 of W231 under a 125 gr cast or plate bullet. Cycles fine in a Browning HP or M&P 9 Compact. New M&P 5 inch L it will not cycle at all. So much simpler to use the same load with all pistols. Anybody change out the springs on these guns yet ? Does Wolf stock various rates like they do for a 1911 ? No doubt that's a minimum load but that's what I want. Boats

Live fire better. Better by degrees that is 3 small changes don't open any big doors but Change to setting up closer indexing to T 3 and bending left knee keeping right foot flat was noticeable on paper. Shot 8 sets of 6 shots all left side only, only fired on T 3 the one with the most stretch to get a sight picture. All 48 rounds on paper. mix of 0-1 & 3 down. More 3's than I would have liked but no misses either. Slowed down a lot too. Splits were rough figures draw 3 shot to shot 1.5 about 12 total. At that pace add a mag change and go right side for 6 more and it's going to be 26 plus That's slower than I usually shoot and could be the significant thing over the footwork. Once I get the move down can speed up some. Boats

These left rights are confusing but, Was indexing my feet to the first target engaged, feet square to the target. Left side T1, gave a little shift duing the mag change, then indexed right side on T 3. Droped shots have shown a strong weakness in T 3 from the left side. The one I have to reach for unsteady. What has worked out dry fire is setting up with my feet square to T 3 when shooting left side of the barricade. Still start on T 1 but set up for T 3. It feels much better not so off balance. Three changes though not all due to the indexing feet. Not so far back from the barricade and bending my left knee keeping the right foot flat. Have not given any thought to doing the same thing on the other side as yet. Setting up on the last target instead of the first one engaged that is. Save that for next time, too many changes you can't see whats right and wrong. On the way to the range this morning to shoot live Left side of the barricade only. Will see if the drops have gone away. Boats

Spent some time dry fire and working through this morning. This is what I came up with, comments welcome. Stage III first half of string one only. Left side of Bianchi barricade two shots each T1 T 2 T 3 Footwork only. I had been setting up way back from the Barricade. Always heard this was the way to go. Drew the angles in pencil on my shop floor. Setting up with my arms extended and palms flat on the barricade vs setting up arms extended fingertips out and some extra room. It takes 6 inches more lean to get on T3 when way back. Palms flat there is plenty of room for mag changes and switching the pistol to the right side. Too close is not good but it seems too far away is not good either. Particulary when the excessive lean makes me uncomfortable. Foot position. You have to index on something, no time to switch feet around. I lean less and am more stable on T 3 my most difficult target if I index square to it even though it's the last target engaged. That is the reverse of what I have always done. Have always Indexed square to the first target and swinging my body to the others. Knees. I think it's better to flex the left or outboard knee keeping my right foot flat on the ground. Of course the big thing is time. I need to get all I can out of smooth draws and mag changes but slow down and take plenty of time to make hits. Misses on this stage ruin the classifier. Boats

Tried the search engine but could not find this specifically. Left side of the Stage III Baracade is my biggest weak point. right handed shooter. I think I have the waist up part worked out but waist down can't seem to get it just right. How about foot placement. Have been standing square to the target toes at 12/oc Do you think skewing to the left toes at 10 o/c is better. Why not 2 o/c ? Seems either is more stable than square. Next on Knees, reaching way over for the T3 I have to bend something. Is it better to left knee stiff and go to tip toe right foot or bend the left knee and keep my right foot flat. Right now either way is not real steady. No doubt I can work all of this out on my own but a steer in the right direction would cut the learning curve. Out of the box would be to switch to Weak hand so I don't have to lean quite so far. It could be better, could not be any worse. Boats

Mine out of the box had a "sticky" extractor. Probably some of the finsh go on it. Clue was when ejecting a live chambered round the extractror would not let it go everytime. Boats

Some might call it Gaming but, Our club always needs help setting up. Roll out the barrels set up targets and lay out the stage you are not very likely to make a mistake while shooing. Being new to the game I find it real usefull. Boats

Don't load the 40 but have some experience down loading 45's. It has it's own set of problems. Not that they can't be overcome but it is something that needs to be worked out. In the 45 use springs specialy for 200 gr swc's at 850 fps. If I went to factory 230's would have to switch out the springs. No doubt there would be sight issues too. Also loading 9mm with pre cast lead bullets for about 10 cents a round. 125's at just over 1000 fps. And buying W-W White Box 9's at Wal-mart for 20 cents. Shoot the reloads practice and factory ammo match. Sights nearly the same either load. My reloads are reliable in a S&W M&P and a Browning HP. Those pistols are easy feeders though. Only problems I ever had with them was some factory Remmington bought on sale, half jammed. Rounds were very short when measured, factory stuff is not all good. Particuarly in the 9mm were a lot of surplus ammo is around. Good thing about the 9 is I don't have to pre plan loading can stop at any gun shop on the way to a match. 45 acp only shoot reloads, my pistols have never seen factory ammo. Cost perhaps a penny more per round than the 9 mm. Boats

Here is my rule, and have used it loading over 30 years. I always consult a printed manual before loading, even though I have loaded the cartridge many times, may also look at my personal loading log but don't depend on it for conformation of the powder charge. Always go to print first. have caught mistakes several times at this stage Then I prepare a "recipe" card with the details, Scrap of paper, notebook always something written, And have it on the loading bench when preparing the loads. Throw it away after so it can't be used again. Boats

Called, here is the deal. I mailed in the rebate package for the April 30 ending program May 6. S&W entered it into there system May 22. They said they are shipping mags off my rebate plan but only up to the first week of May reciept so far. They guessed a couple more weeks if they get re-supply from overseas They did not say for sure but it sems the earlier customers were angry anyway so they put priority on the newer rebate progam. Worked pretty good too. Boats

5 Months for me and weeks for other guys something must be wrong. They sent the rebate check in a month or so. Am calling them again today Boats

Been waiting for the two frees 5 months now, Hounded S&W by phone and they can't say when they are going to get any. To shoot IDPA had to scrouge around gun shops and buy The third for neary 40 bucks over the counter Speculating only they look like they are made by Mec Gar in Italy on the phone Smith & W told me they were not made in house. Imagine develop a Glock beater to sell to the countrys police forces and can't supply mags If I ran the company would fire somebody over it. It is a good pistol though. Boats

Sorry about the BHP comment it was advice given not my personal opinion. I like that pistol and have owned a few over the years. Problem is to shoot it competitvely I would have to alter it, sights. saftey. and trigger job. Then there is the Magazine saftey, If removed it clearly disqualifies the pistol from IDPA competion. I understand it's not generaly enforced but I try to follow rules pretty strict. Altering would make it less desirable to own in my eyes. Improve my skill sets in the classifer and I think I could do OK in ESP even with the limitations. Localy not many people shoot that class anyway. Boats

Good post got a lot out of it. Here is the beginners take on the classifier course of fire. Am a long time rifle competitor not a bad shot, generally in the top third or so local matches sometimes place or even win one. Lately just shooting offhand rifle matches. Gave IDPA a try at my sons recomendaton last November. Seemed to me it would help one of my offhand hang up's seeing the correct sight picture and not breaking the shot promptly. From rifle match shooting I have a good idea of how to take something break it down into parts and make gains. Anyway shot a few local matches then tried the classifier. Never been much of a pistol shot and had to rummage around for something to shoot. Used a BHP and Klutzed the mag changes as well as many points down on stage 3. Think the time was 210 or so. Tried it again with a Colt Commander and hung up with a couple of stovepipe jams. same time same problems. Sat back and put a stop watch on other guys shooting the stages and they were a whole lot faster on the stages than me. Not to mention accucary was better too. One of the local good shots suggested I take the classifier course of fire break it down into parts and work on it as a training exercise. And buy a timer to see what I am doing. Also said forget about the antiques and get a new plastic 9 mm. It's worked pretty good, have a baseline that includes all basic pistol skills. Don't have them all down pat yet still have trouble with stage 3 misses but it's a lot better. Expect next time the club holds the classifer match I will be much better. Meantime have been shooting the monthly matches. My take is the IDPA match is a game, some people shoot the game better than others. Skill sets are very important but you still have to be able to play the game. Sort of like a good driving range golfer that can't put it together on the course. Boats

Other than the edge is a problem since the mechanism is designed to work below and under the edge. If you put one on top of the bench it would have to be pretty high. I use two presses side by side on a T shaped platform made from 2 inch Oak. One is a Lyman 6 hole rotary the other a single stage Lyman Spartan. Presses are bolted to the top of the T. The whole rig sits on my woodworkers bench and is clampd to the bench in a large screw woodworkers vice. It's is a big strong leg vice and the flat base bears on the bench top. Rig is real solid and is removed in short order. Stows underneath the bench when not in use. It's the best portable solution I have found. If you don't have a strong vice and solid bench the same thing can be done by mounting the press on a wide piece of good plywood and C clamping the base to your bench when using it. I used to use a rig like that with a light Lee single stage press when traveling to matches. Set up on Hotel bathroom counters or any bench the range happend to have. Boats

Kimmie On the crimp thats one thing I don't measure prefering to look at it through a 4x magnifier. I want mimimum just enough to make sure the case does not ride "hard" Up the feed ramp. As mentioned the cases size holds the bullet tight. Crimp does not need to be much. On pulling again. Agree it's a lot of trouble to pull dies for one off jobs. I have two presses mounted side by side, Both old cast iron lymans, One is a rotary and has 6 holes keep it set for 9mm and 45 ACP most of the time. 2nd press is a old Lyman Spartan singe stage. Used at Gun shows they should not cost 25 bucks. It's real usefull for short jobs so you don't have to take your dies out of the main press. Boats

Kimmie On the bullet pullers, I get along fine with a good pair of pliers. I put the round in the shell holder raise it up and under the top of my press without a die in the hole. Grab it and pull down on the handle. Comes right out. It does ruin the bullet but I suspect the inertia pullers ruin too, Particuarly if a lead cast bullet. Once crimped they are messed up anyway. I should have answered you on the safety issue. It's true that a bullet deeper in the case raises pressure, but the little bit you tweak a 45 acp round to get it to fit the gun and magazines is not going to cause a problem. Boats

Good things to have are a Dial Caliper and Micrometer. Used off Ebay they don't cost a lot. Avoid the new Chinese ones though. Mintouro-Japan makes a good one is is often seen used. Also at more money Starett or Brown & Sharpe. Once you can measure O/A length and diameter keep a record of what works well in your pistol. For example I have two Colt 1911's using the same 200 gr SWC, one I load to 1.250 the other to 1.262. Way the cartridge fits the barrels leade is different gun to gun. You can paint the bullet with a magic marker chamber the round and marks will show what it's hitting when in place. Magizines are different too. the 1.250 load works a lot better in my Mec Gar mags than the longer loading. Longer rounds I use with Factory mags in the pistol that likes longer cartridges. I have recorded in my loading log size of factory loaded cases and the brass after fired. This is a good refrence when re-loading get it back to factory spec. Also keep a few dummy rounds to use when setting up my press. Case guages are great and and I use one too but it only shows go or no go, not what went wrong or needs to be changed/ Other thing I find handy is a small magnifier, mine is a 4x jeweler's loupe. That way I can watch the crimp very carefully. Make sure it's enough with nothing to hang on the feed ramp as the gun cycles. All this sounds complicated but once you know the proper dims for your pistol it speeds things up a lot and insures reliability. Boats

It could have something to do with that particular rotor on my measure. Loaded 200 just now with 5.3 of 231 for the 45 acp using a different rotor no problem. Seems to not be a problem when using larger charges of Unique for the 45 Lc or 38/357 with the little Bonanza Unique gave me a fit loading 200 9 mm's. at 4.7 grs. I do have a couple of adjustable measures. One is a high dollar Harrells click adjustable I use for my Schuetzen rifle but it's not good at small charges. Old C-H or Lyman 55 don't throw pistol charges good either. If there is a good adjustable pistol measure out there would like some advice. Boats

Have always used W231 for Automatics and Unique for Revolvers. Loading for a S&W M&P 9 compact could not come up with the right W231 load. Right one is between rotor sizes I have on hand. Found a load that works good with Unique. But ran out of my old supply and bought a new canister made by Alliant. It's different. In my fixed rotor Bonanza pistol meter the the same charge rotor throws more weight with new Unique compared to old. Load with the New powder and same charge rotor seems hotter too, I was also getting some weak loads. Have never had this problem with that measure and either W231 or Unique. This morning charged 50 9 mm cases using the Bonanza and went back and weighed them. Very inconsistent. Varied from 4.7 down to 4.4 grs. None higher than the intended 4.7 though. I am a experenced loader and am familar with "bridging" in powder measures and remideys so went back and charged them again using specific methods, shake when the chamber is filling then a tap on the top when dumping powder. Better but still not perfect. Anybody have this problem ? Boats

My full size Colt series 70 functions with 5.7 231 using the 200 gr H&G BB SWC cast bullet, not reliable with less. Other Colt a Commander model that I shoot IDPA most with willl function with 5.3 The 5.3 is very near the mimimum for Major and if shooting a big match would bump the charge up some. Also consider that velocity will vary according to ambient temp, sometimes quite a bit, Best not to work too close to the line if it's important Boats