Paradox

There is no doubt that stress relieved automotive parts benefit (blocks, crankshafts, connecting rods, brake rotors, etc...). However, I have heard mixed reviews about using the cryogenic treatment process. JP supports Cryo-treatment for his barrels, but has anyone done tests to support the claims? I know there is more to the treatment than a simple freeze to sub-zero temperatures. From what I have read, the process is similar to annealing, but you don't get some of the bad side effects such as removing scale/oxidation. I have been looking into using a different type of stress relief for machined or welded parts... But waiting on procurement of the equipment to do so. The benefit is that a small shop could preform the operation faster and at much lower cost. Long story short - do the cryogenic treated barrels work as advertised, and if so -are they worth the effort? If the same effects could be duplicated and at a much lower cost, would individual gunshops be interested? (This would apply to any machined or welded part - frames, slides, barrels, you name it.) Personally, I think that frames and slides would benefit more from stress relief....

Not to hijack the thread but since you mentioned it... Both of us have been expecting 17" SS barrels with the standard rifle gas block location, custom barrel dimensions, and a .223 Wylde chamber. The order was placed at LEAST 3 months ago. Called them last week and they hadn't even started on the order. Canceled order for both barrels. Placed the order based upon recommendation, but I don't think I will order anything from them in the future.

LoL... Classic... but you forgot to add the picture of Erik Estrada

I found an internet article on the powder as I am curious about it as well. Lots of good info so far, but check this out http://www.gunblast.com/IMR_TrailBoss.htm

Giving up on the 'pellet' gun already? I guess the insane 3-4 month wait for a custom CLE 5.56 barrel would do that to a person *SIGH* I think Mark Buchanan also has some .308 mag pouches. http://www.3gungear.com Buffer Technologies makes Mag Cinches for the AR-10 / .308 family Mags. http://www.buffertech.com I haven't seen any 30 round magazines made for the AR-10, but that's not to say they don't exist in any quantity. Me thinks the carbon fiber handguard will come in handy for high round counts...sheesh Speaking of such, I bet a pic of your PRI equipped JP upper would be a great addition to the 'gun porn' gallery Ahh! Google is a wonderful tool, but then so am I

Work has been kick'n me in the nutz... so I am a little late on results. I did get some pictures for those interested. I weighed samples of all the .40 Caliber bullets I had on hand but left the friggin worksheet... *sigh* My results pretty much mirrored Hanks, the Precision bullets are definately more consistent than the Master Blasters. From what I remember, the Precisions are basically 188.0 grains +- .3 Also, I noticed a difference in the coating. To show a comparison, I swiped both types of bullets down a sheet of copy paper. You could use the MB's as a pencil if you needed The Precisions left a very faint mark - the lighting for the pictures wasn't the greatest but you can definately tell a difference. Chrono and accuracy reports later. -Justin

--*UPDATE*-- I ordered a case of 185gr .40's Monday. Got them from UPS (UPS ground is next day for me and cost 2 dollars more) at lunch. My first impressions of the new bullets are good! I weighed a hand full and I am pleased with the consistency. Haven't mic'd them yet but will load some up with Titegroup, N320, and WST tonight for chronographing tomorrow. The nose looks very similar to the Montana Golds that I have... I will try to take some pictures for comparison tonight. I never got to try any before the 'transistion' but Precision gets an A+ this go around for service. Dave was also very courteous on the phone. I still have a case of the Masterblaster bullets on hand, and still like them - but my initial impressions of the Precisions lead me to think I will be buying more Thanks again for the initial replies! Justin

Harmon - I have tried N320, Titegroup, WST, and Universal Clays (not straight Clays). Of the 3, I liked N320 the best. I didn't do a whole lot with Universal Clays as it was slower burning - several places down the list on the burn rate chart. I will have to check it out again as I still have most of the pound I tried. I am thinking about giving Titegroup another chance. It has a good feel, but I haven't found it to be as clean for me as others (Jacketed or Cast). I have been told that Hogdon has changed the formulation in the past few years? The lot that I tried was bought in 98 or 99? lol Also looks like I will be placing an order with Precision Justin

Thank you Hank! That was the kind of information I was looking for. Looking forward to hearing your accuracy report For anyone that has used both bullets, is the coating on one brand of bullet (MB or Precision) seem 'cleaner' than the other?

Thanks for the replies! So I am gathering that the Precisions are preferred over the MB's?

I read this post at an opportune time. It just so happens that I experienced a similar situation at my local club for the last match. As others have said, people will be people no matter where and what you are doing. During my last local match, I observed a gentleman acting in a manner in which I was actually embarrassed FOR him. His actions were being directed at a couple of people (myself being one of them). Instead of lowering to his level, I ignored the remarks and shot my best match ever. Believe me - others will notice as the people that matter will respect you more. Every time I witness someone acting like that I just make a mental note of what not to do or say. On the other hand, I have met many more people in the sport that are some of the most well rounded and good natured people I could hope to find. Congratulations on the progress!

In this case, I am refering to the "New" style moly coated Precision bullets out of Kemp, Texas. (I am told they don't have lube grooves) I forgot about the Precision Delta FMJ's. Sorry for the confusion... Wow ... that was a fast reply

Seems like forever and a day, but Precision told me this morning that .40 185gr and .45 200gr bullets are now in stock! I was further told that they are shipping in "Case Deals" with the USPS. Specifically - 2500ct .40 Cal 185gr - $139.00 Delivered 2250ct .45 Cal 200gr - $129.75 Delivered I have been shooting the MB bullets for almost 2 years now, and I am pleased with what I have gotten for the money. Having said that, I have never shot or weighed the Precisions. I have read posts citing both independently, but not listing Pro's / Con's between the two. Can anyone give me a comparision of the Masterblaster Moly and the "New" Precisions? Thanks in advance! Justin

Shred - I have noticed that in general the POI drops as the velocity for a given bullet increases. I will just have to load some 135's and see where they shoot. Thanks for the responses!

I shot my first Steel Challenge Match this weekend, WHAT A BLAST! Now I want to try some Minor PF loads... To be more specific with my question: I normally shoot a 180gr load at 168PF. However, I would like to try some 135gr for the steel matches (950fps - 1150fps). Is there a relatively easy way of determining "180gr bullet at 945fps has same (or really close) POI as a 135gr at XXXX fps"? I am also assuming that only the elevation changes and not windage... Does anyone have any experience trying this? -Justin

Thanks for the quick replies! Austin & Alan550: Good to know someone else has experienced the same issue with these bullets - now I don't think I am crazy lol. I get A zone accuracy at 50 yds offhand with my loads so perhaps I am being too anal... I know that if I miss a headshot at 15+ it was my fault virginiascout: I will check into the bullet seating die. I haven't seen an alignment tool before, but I will also call Dillon and inquire. Thus far, I haven't noticed my shellholder loosening up. However, I have only loaded about 400-500 rounds since I went through the press. Thanks for the tips! 1911user: You are correct. I didn't have a case in the sizing die when measuring powder drops and OAL. Seems like I would have already thought of that hehe. I do adjust the rod spring to allow the powder bar to return fully on the down stroke. My comment about soaking the cases was sarcastic at best... I was insinuating that I needed to slick them up for more consistent press operation. George: I have adjusted the FCD according to factory recommendations. I am basically just removing the bell and adding a very slight taper crimp. My biggest concern for getting my ES down was for consistently making major. I shoot for a 168PF, and 80FPS adds pucker factor when I get chrono'd. If I don't get the ES down, perhaps I will just add a bit more powder and forget about it for the time being. Question: I said I was going to do the powder measure retrograde, but has anyone actually measured a difference in consistency afterwards? I can live with the extra noise, but it seems to me that the powder measure itself is fairly consistent... Many thanks, Justin P.S. - I have tried WST, Ramshot Competition, and N320 with the MB bullets. N320 has been the most consistent thus far. Competition and WST exibit almost the same measuring properties. WST smokes less for me, and I already have a keg of it (I use it in .45ACP).

I have seen several posts on similar topics, but not all of them exactly describe what I am seeing. I have been tinkering with this dilemma for a week now, I just want to stop *$c%!ng with my loads and go shooting My problem presented itself after I decided to chronograph loads last week. Velocities were all over the place, with an extreme spread of over 80 FPS. For reference, my practice load is 180gr Master Blaster bullets over WST, WSR primers, and mixed brass. I am using Dillon Dies with a Lee FCD as most of the brass has been shot through Glocks (I am shooting a STI). My first step was to disassemble, clean, and lube my press including the powder measure and a wipedown with anti-static spray on the measure (No lube on powder measure). I tightened the shellplate to the point where I had minimal play and still keep free movement (approximately 1/8 turn before lock). I also ensured that none of the dies contacted the shellplate at the top of its travel. The sizing and FC die are set approximately 1/8 turn from interference with the shellplate. Using some of my match brass (Winchester), I adjusted the powder die to flare 0.010" as per Dillon's reccomendation. Then, I adjusted the powder measure to dump a smaller charge than I needed increasing to the desired charge. (In the future, I will start with a larger charge and work down for reasons listed later.) I assumed this would minimize slack between the adjustment bolt and the powder bar. Once I made a change, I dumped 4 charges pulling and pushing the handle as consistently as possible. Then, I dumped 2 charges in a dummy case weighing the total. I preformed this three more times to check the powder charge. Average weight variation was within +- 0.1 grain. (I believe this is in acceptable limits...) Next, I used some junk cases to set OAL. I ran the adjustment knob down by hand until I reached a round that measured 1.18". I repeated this 2 more times, with a variation small enough I didn't concern myself with it. At this point, I was thinking to myself, "OK. I should have a good base to start loading..." Sure... Until I start measuring during / after the loading process. First, the powder charge has increased itself. I am sure this is attributed to the additional vibration from the sizing and resize/crimp die. OK. Fine, I can readjust to compensate - Only now the charge varies +- 0.3 grains. Next, my OAL has changed. The loaded round OAL now varies between 1.183" and 1.194" *sigh* I feel that the biggest factor in the OAL variation stems from the fit of the die plate and the press. There is a noticable wobble between the two. It seems that perhaps some kind of plate or C shaped channel could be fabricated to pull the die plate into the top of the press for more consistency? I still have the new style "fail safe" system on my powder measure (aka Fart Knocker / Clunk-Clunk / etc.. hehe) My next modification will be EricW's retrograde or a variation of it to remove some of the.... uhhh Clunking. I would almost want to remove the carbide sizing ring out of the crimp die, but that would defeat its purpose. I really enjoy not having to worry about a 'Glocked' case sticking in the chamber (knock on wood I haven't had that problem since using the FCD die). A few details might have escaped me for the time being, but that is my current situation... Additional notes: 1.) The MB bullets are not as consistent in weight as my JHP's and that could (will) account for some variation in velocity. 2.) I have tried other powders and while the problem isn't as pronounced... it is still there. (I use Titegroup or N320 for the JHP's and get smaller variations, but they are still more than .1 grain) 3.) Mixed cases have different case volumes, but again I have the same problem with separated cases. (The variation is not as pronounced but more than it should be.) 4.) I will remove the Fail Safe feature tomorrow, and recheck. Obviously, the press seems very consistent before I add in the size / crimp stations. 5.) Anything I can do besides presizing and soaking the cases in lube to improve consistency? 5.) Am I missing something in my method of press setup? 6.) I love my Dillon, and wouldn't go back to loading pistol calibers on a single stage, but DAMN... surely there is a light at the end of the tunnel? 7.) I have 10k of bullets and brass to load... I want to go shooting! Sorry for the short story, but I am about to go bald at an early age... Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Justin

Awesome!! Now if I can only get some cardboard to run through my laser printer...

Everything Duane said... Ironically, I spent some time with my 686 on the plate rack over the holidays. It's been almost a year since I have fired a wheel gun, and immediately noticed a different recoil impluse compared to a semi-auto. (I am also left dumbfounded as to how people like Jerry Miculek can reload one so quickly...but that's another story) My take is that the foward movement of the slide after the shot helps you return the front sight to its initial position. In my experience, it doesn't really matter how high the front sight flips as long as you can get a consistant return. I can run 6 plates at the same speed whether I am shooting mouse-fart .38specials or full power .357mag hunting loads. The double action trigger on a revolver is much less forgiving than a 2lb single action, so I practiced dry firing a few runs through the plates. Definately stick to some sort of neutral grip over a 'push-pull' grip. The suggestion for rolling the support hand forward will help with controlling the recoil. 'Tension' is a totally subjective term, and I probably use more grip pressure than most. Generally, I grip as firmly as possible without losing fine trigger control. The most important factor for me is that the relationship in pressure between my strong and weak hand is consistant for that particular pistol/load. As Duane stated, you will know you have the correct percentages when the front sight tracks vertically. My advice is to take lots of ammo to the range, try some timing drills to get the front sight tracking and find what works for you Good Luck!

Nice, so I have one positive opinion. Any other references to the accuracy? I am looking for statements like - with Federal GM ammo I shot 1/2MOA... Thanks for the reply Zak. Anyone else ?

I must dare to be different! "Everyone" has a Remmy (or Accuracy International ) of some type, but I am looking into purchasing a FN SPR series rifle. Availible with Detachable Box Magazine, 24" barrel, .308Win or .300 WSM, 1-12" twist barrel, McMillan Stock... Cost should be $1,300 to $1,400. On the other hand, the extra dough spent on this rifle would get some nice upgrades on the 700P... Can be seen here: FN A1 SPR & FN A2 SPR Does anyone have first hand opinions on this rifle, (accuracy, fit, finish, etc...)? Thanks in advance!

Posting the video might help

I think I heard the most groaning at the 50yd standard LoL "My barrel must be worn out..."

Has anyone noticed that the Area 4 website is down? It is still http://www.uspsa4.org correct?

Hope to meet everyone there!