Chuck Anderson

First off, I've never seen any officer show up in "FULL" duty gear. Bits and pieces yes, duty rig yes, everything, no. Second, if he wanted to take the light off it would be a non issue. If he really wants to argue the point and is there for training, then it really doesn't matter, Open is fine. Personally I don't want to be in a position of shortcutting division rules for every widget that someone wants to claim is for duty carry. Holster position, magazine pouches, that makes sense. Lights, lasers, red dots, uh no. It's a lot easier to have a bright clean line in this case than it is to have a different interpretation at every different venue.

Yes we're sure. The exemption under 5.2.8 only applies to holsters, magazine pouches and their respective locations for the purposes of Divisional compliance. Flashlights have long been considered electronic sights and have never been allowed in any Division but Open. 5.2.8 won't get you around that restriction.

Email to John: Question came up re: cops using flashlights on Production pistols. There are more people out there than I expected that seem to think the "related equipment" clause allows gun lights. I thought it applied to holster, magazine pouches and their respective positions. Is this more broad than I thought? Chuck Email from John Not to my knowledge, what you think it is, to me is how I would rule on it. John Other than being about the most poorly written sentence I've ever seen out of John, seems pretty clear no lights.

On my phone but short answer from John is no they are not legal. I'll post his response when I get back to a computer.

Have you ever asked a question of arfcom without being slammed and called 5 different names Have you even been in the 3 Gun Nation forum. The idiots haven't found it yet or they got scared off because we can actually shoot. Yes, found it, looked at it, there is no useful information there. This was the forum off the link no the 3GN website. Is there somewhere else I should be looking? Doesn't look like that forum gets a lot of activity.

I thought the best way would be to email Rob at the email address listed on the postings. But that didn't work either.

True, but at that point, if they don't register as LEO, then what's to stop me from putting a light on the end of my muzzle and shooting in Production? Either they register as LEO, and can shoot the match in their duty gear, or they register as a civilian, and shoot in open with their duty gear... I think that should be corrected. If the LEO is going to shoot the match using the LEO exemption to division requires, I think the shooter should be identified as LEO. This allows everyone to know he was really shooting a different match. Though the LEO isn't a Division he is shooting a different match like the way the Single Stack shooter shoots a different match. He should be able to see how he did the overall, but his comparision in the Division will be skewed because of his duty rig. He's carrying more weight, using a slower holster (Todd J doing a stupid fast draw from a level 3 aside- the rest of the frickin' universe is significantly delayed by the Lvl 3 over the open top kydex holster), and the closed top holsters. If he has a flashlight it's a minor offset to the rest of his handicaps. If he beats you with those handicaps- waaaaaa. It's like getting beat by a Single Stacker when yer shooting Limited; you got beat. You're making an assumption they are using a level 3 duty rig, or flap holsters for that matter. My duty rig was a Safariland 6280 with Bianchi Accu-Mold open top mag pouches. Although I can't we do have a guy in the office who can routinely do .7 and the occasional .6 draw from that particular holster. I'll check with John, but I'd wager his answer is going to be no flashlights. I would also add that my current "duty" rig is a Safariland 6378 ALS holster with a Crimson Trace Lightguard on a Glock 19, and a Blade Tech mag pouch holding a Glock 17 mag with an Arredondo Base pad on it. I run the same holster for competition in 3 Gun but I wouldn't try to get away with a light attached.

I really, really hate when people say crap like that. It's almost worse than the "this is just a local match" cop out. It doesn't do anyone any favors. Not the competitor and certianly not the other shooters. Just confuses everyone when they incorrectly think it's legal and go to a big match.

What's the difference between a 9mm 124 grain bullet going 1400 feet per second out of a 9 x 19 mm case and a 9mm 124 grain bullet going 1400 feet per second out of a .38 super comp case? A load I might add is awful similar to a .357 Magnum. A round which has a fairly enviable record for putting bad guys down. I'm not suggesting 9 major should be allowed in Limited, but it certainly qualifies as Power in my book.

Uh, no. That particular rule was created to allow LE guys to shoot their duty gear, meaning holster and magazine pouch positions could be adjusted. Most LE's wear their magazines in the front, not behind the hipbone. Some LE's have holsters that go below the belt, either thigh rigs or just really low belt drops. It doesn't give license to waive other divisional requirements. It doesn't give LE license to use magwells, grip tape on the slide (which by the way is not uncommon in LE), magazines loaded all the way up, slide mounted red dots or for that matter 1911's in Production. Divisional requirements are still the same, it just allows for different holster/mag locations.

The guns in Limited are already, "super expensive". Except when Vogel or Sevigny come in and beat everyone with a $500.00 gun. I have played with Jessie Harrison-Abbate-Harrison soon to be Duff's Glocks. They were no $500 guns. WG Didn't say anything about Jessie's guns, but I have shot enough with them and handled both Sevigny and Vogel's guns. I could very easily duplicate either of their guns for $500.00.

Arbitration the appropriate course of action by the rules. But you shouldn't have to. It's simple for them to take the light off. Not a big deal. And speaking as an LEO, yes they should be in Open. If you can't get the MD or RM to deal with it, you can always hit up the SC or AD. I'd hope it didn't go that far, but those are the options.

I would love to see the Invitation process get back. But only because the Cup got so big they couldn't come close to fitting everyone in.

No it isn't, I had to buy two dang books to tell me how to do it. That was from last years expenses too!

So how is that better than L10 where you have all the same benefits, no extended mags required, lots of guns can play, or for that matter, how is it that different than Limited?

How many folks dO you see for state or regional matches? I'd like to host one starting next year in Oregon. As far as I know there isn't anything else on the West Coast. Just don't think it would be cool to do one for 8 people.

What can I say, Three Gun is an expensive mistress.

Wow, you get away cheap. Just did my taxes and I'm around 40K for last year. Made about 20K back off prize tables etc., but I'm still 20K in the hole. Nice hobby we have.

Where are you in Oregon?

Which reticle?

Tri-County (Sherwood, OR) has CQB Multigun on the third Saturday, and 3 Gun Tactical (Pistol, Shotgun, Carbine) on the 4th Sunday. The first is basically IMGA style MG, the second is IDPA style MG, both are shot in 50 yard bays so range is not long. They also have a practical rifle match there on the second Saturday that will have long range targets.

Looks like roughly the same way they chose this year. They'll have the Divisional championship with top scores, by Division from a series of matches. One will be the tie breaker (I think FNH, but don't quote me). The 3GN Champion will be the winner of the shootoff in Vegas Jan 2013. I don't think anyone is saying that the winner is the king of 3 Gun. But that person will be the 3GN Champion.

If you're referring to multi time and current ladies Open National Champion, Kay Miculek, you bet she got an invite. She finished high enough in the standings. If you're referring to Katie Harris, not yet. She might get one. I know at least one (me) person had to pass on their invitation. I really wish I could play this year but my boss has me chained to the desk (both the one at work and the one at home) I will be shooting the qualifier match in 2013, and I will be getting my card next year though. And I'm perfectly fine with the process for getting on the tour they have outlined. As far as the post about the number 64. Seems pretty fair to me. This is for the Pros, not the also rans. Sure there are 250 people at a normal 3 Gun match. Maybe 10 of them have a chance to WIN the match. At a match like the Pro-Am, maybe 20 (that was a deep pool in Tactical) To the guy who insinuated that the Pro's will be sitting around having you fan them and bring them umbrellas drinks, in between shagging our brass and taping our targets. Thank you for bringing this issue to the fore front. First off, I think this is an excellent idea, long coming. I would very much like this. I'd prefer the bikini girls that Travis Gibson promised me last year for the MGM Ironman. Instead when I got there the only one in a dress was Outzen. (BTW, that was sarcasm, except Outzen in a dress) Unfortunately I'm pretty sure we'll have to live in the real world for the next several years. The one where some of those pros continue to be the hardest working guys in the sport. I'm thinking of Cramblitt putting on the Pro-Am, Kurt and Trapr putting on all their matches, Thacker and Hanish, the brains, well okay one of them at least, behind pushing 3GN to FNH. If I really wanted to I could go down the list, listing the accomplishments and efforts of at least half that final 64 field. But why bother, to quote Pete's Facebook, "Haters gonna hate." Geez guys, give them a break, they are still starting out. They've only been at this for just over two years. People keep complaining at them for whatever they do. This seems like a really fair way to do it, meets their requirements, doesn't screw with the existing matches or other competitors, and gives an avenue to opt in or out. Sorry for the conspiracy theorists, but I don't see a way to do it otherwise. Oh, and Craig, if you want to see some lazy guys sitting around doing nothing, just go to a World Shoot or other major IPSC (not USPSA) event. They won't let you tape your own targets. You really do have to sit around and watch other people do the work. It's the most frustrating thing.

Probably to avoid that concern and not give the top 64 an unfair advantage with matches the rest of us can't get into. I actually think it's a pretty good way of doing it.

But the Divisional series is open to anyone. Feel free to have at that. And the Invitational matches aren't part of that.