Randy Lee Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Hi rack&roll, I'm a little late to the game here, but I wanted to interject some technical notes. Since you said you were having light strikes, if you weren't having light hits on the primer with your poly trigger I suspect you may need to close the loop slightly. We took out as much of the over travel as possible, so it could be that with your particular trigger bar/slide to frame tolerance combination, that your trigger bar needs to move a bit further rearward to lift the striker block plunger out of the striker channel before the striker is released.This is accomplished by closing the loop slightly. If your loop cannot be closed any further, email or pm me and we can go over all the possible causes and remedies. Smith has gone through several design changes in their trigger bars, and we have tried to allow for as much of the timing variation as possible with the design of the new trigger. That being said, once in a while we find a gun that is on the edge. Please let me know if this helps! -Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magsz Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Closing loops?!?!? Since when did Bruce Willis start working at Apex?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkeg Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Closing loops?!?!? Since when did Bruce Willis start working at Apex?! I see what you did there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rack&roll Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Hi rack&roll, I'm a little late to the game here, but I wanted to interject some technical notes. Since you said you were having light strikes, if you weren't having light hits on the primer with your poly trigger I suspect you may need to close the loop slightly. We took out as much of the over travel as possible, so it could be that with your particular trigger bar/slide to frame tolerance combination, that your trigger bar needs to move a bit further rearward to lift the striker block plunger out of the striker channel before the striker is released.This is accomplished by closing the loop slightly. If your loop cannot be closed any further, email or pm me and we can go over all the possible causes and remedies. Smith has gone through several design changes in their trigger bars, and we have tried to allow for as much of the timing variation as possible with the design of the new trigger. That being said, once in a while we find a gun that is on the edge. Please let me know if this helps! -Randy Thanks Randy, I guess I got it backwards. (wouldn't be the first time ) I'll try closing the loop a little, and see if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I have been called loopy before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rack&roll Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I have been called loopy before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallz Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Rack, not un common for people to open the loop rather than close it up. I had somone bring me a M&P with a Poly FSS kit and was complaining that it was longer than stock and light strikes after the install. It had excess pretravel and creep,....what they did was open the loop. After taking back down (and a bit more) it was a night and day difference. In the end they were extreamly happy and scores improved. I am eagerly awaiting my FFT, just orderd it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealkoop Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 I had some difficulty getting my first FSS with the aluminum trigger working when I installed it. Its been about a year now and Im finally confident in it. I did receive the flat FSS. Its a great trigger, no doubt. I really like the feel of it, and it allows my finger to be further extended as the LOP is longer. Im not a fan of the safety blade, its more intrusive than my aluminum FSS. I too am having some issues with it. I had timing issues with the original FSS and had to close the loop in order to get good function. The flat FSS seems to have less over travel which is nice, but now my sear barely disengages, and when it does it contacts the USB. This is typically when you would open the loop, however, at this point opening the loop would recreate the timing issues I experienced previously. I attempted to file the rear of the flat FSS to increase overtravel, but it resulted in a much less crisp trigger than the original FSS. For now Im reverting back to the original aluminum FSS. I will try to do more work with the flat FSS when I can, but I dont have time to be experimenting when I have matches to attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 The version of trigger bar can have a lot to do with the timing issues. We have found that the trigger bars with the "S" stamped on the inside front corner require more opening of the loop than ones marked "H" or those without any marking at all. Also, if the pistol is running the early generation striker assembly (black in color) I recommend replacing it with a more current version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealkoop Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Thanks Randy I will check it. I think the trigger bar in my pistol has been the weak point of my FSS install since the start, due to it being a first generation. At this point its working on my standard FSS trigger, I might try to see if I can order a new unit from somewhere and see if it alleviates the issues a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magsz Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 I have a first gen trigger bar in my sample and it was a drop in situation with no issues. I think that even when installing factory parts, the trigger bar has and will always be the weak link as it almost ALWAYS requires adjustment to get it working CONSISTENTLY, not necessarily working but in a consistent manner. I really do believe that tolerance stacking is something we are just going to have to deal with in regard to working with Poly pistols. They will almost never be the same from A to Z. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealkoop Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Ive considered breaking out the tig welder and making the USB disconnect area on the trigger bar longer so that it contacts the USB sooner. I did get it working well with the standard FSS so I left it. Im 100% positive I can get the flat FSS to work, just dont have time for it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rack&roll Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I put one in my Pro 40 yesterday, and had to open the loop a bit to get it working, but it's working fine in dry-fire at least. So is my Pro Core on which I closed the loop a little. Now I just need to get to the range to test for full ignition of primers with factory and my reloads. Alas, my range of 20 years just closed it's doors for good. It was 10 minutes from my house...it will be sorely missed. Time to find a new place shoot, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I use a nylon dowel to test striker block clearance when testing for light strikes. Before that, I went through a lot of Bic pens to check firing pin energy transfer. By placing the dowel (or rear end of the pen) into the barrel and pointing the muzzle up, dry firing the gun should launch the dowel or pen upwards at least 2.5 feet. If the dowel doesnt exit the barrel or just barely pops out, that indicates that the striker block is not clear of the striker channel when the sear releases the striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkeg Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I use a nylon dowel to test striker block clearance when testing for light strikes. Before that, I went through a lot of Bic pens to check firing pin energy transfer. By placing the dowel (or rear end of the pen) into the barrel and pointing the muzzle up, dry firing the gun should launch the dowel or pen upwards at least 2.5 feet. If the dowel doesnt exit the barrel or just barely pops out, that indicates that the striker block is not clear of the striker channel when the sear releases the striker. Randy, is this for the 9mm M&P? I'm used to checking 1911's that way, and they hit the ceiling. My M&P 9's don't even make it out of the barrel, but I don't get light strikes either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) I use a nylon dowel to test striker block clearance when testing for light strikes. Before that, I went through a lot of Bic pens to check firing pin energy transfer. By placing the dowel (or rear end of the pen) into the barrel and pointing the muzzle up, dry firing the gun should launch the dowel or pen upwards at least 2.5 feet. If the dowel doesnt exit the barrel or just barely pops out, that indicates that the striker block is not clear of the striker channel when the sear releases the striker. Randy, is this for the 9mm M&P? I'm used to checking 1911's that way, and they hit the ceiling. My M&P 9's don't even make it out of the barrel, but I don't get light strikes either. We use this test on the 9,.40 and 45s. If you are using a pencil, or if the back end of the pen is damaged, the firing pin will penetrate the softer material rather than translate the force to the pen/dowel. If the gun is set up for Federal primed handloads, you can also get away with a much lighter striker spring that would not launch out of the muzzle nearly as far as I described earlier. -Randy The 1911 firing pin protrusion beyond the breech face is significantly greater than that of the M&P (or a Glock for that matter), That will usually bounce a pen off of the ceiling with pretty good force. Edited December 5, 2014 by Randy Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rack&roll Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I just tried my CORE and 40 Pro with a pencil (with eraser) and it barely moved. I used a Bic pen and it literally hit the ceiling. Both guns! Off to the range tomorrow, will update ASAP. At this point, I'm starting to think I may have had some high primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkeg Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I use a nylon dowel to test striker block clearance when testing for light strikes. Before that, I went through a lot of Bic pens to check firing pin energy transfer. By placing the dowel (or rear end of the pen) into the barrel and pointing the muzzle up, dry firing the gun should launch the dowel or pen upwards at least 2.5 feet. If the dowel doesnt exit the barrel or just barely pops out, that indicates that the striker block is not clear of the striker channel when the sear releases the striker. Randy, is this for the 9mm M&P? I'm used to checking 1911's that way, and they hit the ceiling. My M&P 9's don't even make it out of the barrel, but I don't get light strikes either. We use this test on the 9,.40 and 45s. If you are using a pencil, or if the back end of the pen is damaged, the firing pin will penetrate the softer material rather than translate the force to the pen/dowel. If the gun is set up for Federal primed handloads, you can also get away with a much lighter striker spring that would not launch out of the muzzle nearly as far as I described earlier. -Randy The 1911 firing pin protrusion beyond the breech face is significantly greater than that of the M&P (or a Glock for that matter), That will usually bounce a pen off of the ceiling with pretty good force. Thanks. I have an APEX CAEK in it, so it's the comp. striker spring. It's probably due for a new one. But I also want to check my timing for drag. Sorry for the drift.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today ) I'll be curious to see if you notice any gains in split time reduction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today ) I'll be curious to see if you notice any gains in split time reduction... I noticed a small improvement yesterday, on "Bill Drills" my normal splits are between 0.18 and 0.21, yesterday they were consistently in the 0.17 range and my slowest was 0.19. I'm not real sure if it was the trigger or my mind thinking it should be faster so it was. Either way, I'll take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today ) I'll be curious to see if you notice any gains in split time reduction... I noticed a small improvement yesterday, on "Bill Drills" my normal splits are between 0.18 and 0.21, yesterday they were consistently in the 0.17 range and my slowest was 0.19. I'm not real sure if it was the trigger or my mind thinking it should be faster so it was. Either way, I'll take it. I think Apex means placebo in some language... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iowashooter Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today )I'll be curious to see if you notice any gains in split time reduction... I noticed a small improvement yesterday, on "Bill Drills" my normal splits are between 0.18 and 0.21, yesterday they were consistently in the 0.17 range and my slowest was 0.19. I'm not real sure if it was the trigger or my mind thinking it should be faster so it was. Either way, I'll take it. I think Apex means placebo in some language...Randy one more time do I open or close the loop if I am having light strikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Just installed the polished kit from two brothers and can't wait to actually shoot it. one awesome feeling trigger already have the flat face FSS and the ram installed. super smooth and crisp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rack&roll Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I replaced my polymer FSS trigger with the Flat faced trigger this morning, put a couple of hundred rounds downrange and I think I like it. (I really hesitate changing things). I'll know better once I remember to put my timer into my range bag (which I didn't today )I'll be curious to see if you notice any gains in split time reduction... I noticed a small improvement yesterday, on "Bill Drills" my normal splits are between 0.18 and 0.21, yesterday they were consistently in the 0.17 range and my slowest was 0.19. I'm not real sure if it was the trigger or my mind thinking it should be faster so it was. Either way, I'll take it. I think Apex means placebo in some language...Randy one more time do I open or close the loop if I am having light strikes? Close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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