10 Rounds Worldwide

[Chuck D]

From what I've read Australia are about to adopt a 10 round maximum in a magazine rule for handguns. Three of the largest regions in IPSC now have,or will about to have magazine capactiy restrictions placed on their citizens and visitors. There also has been talk about the British obtaining a very limited version of their gun rights back so they may compete again (mostly at the Commonwealth Games, I.S.S.F. level). With the possibility of the "10 round only" cancer spreading on a Global scale how will IPSC deal with this? Canada made a bid for the '05 World Shoot but Canadian Law worked against them. Will we never see a W.S. in the three largest regions in the Confederation? Would you attend a 10 round only World Shoot?

(Edited by Chuck D at 11:02 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)

[Phil Dunlop]

I'd be a starter! I'll almost certainly be buying 10rd mags if the Aussie law is passed so I can continue to compete over there.

I'm looking forward to trying out for the team to Equador, but would have been just as happy to have gone to Canada, (I understood an exemption to the 10 round rule was organised for WS)

I thought the US law was due to expire next year, be interested to hear how likely that is.

P.D.

[day5creations]

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I thought the US law was due to expire next year, be interested to hear how likely that is.

P.D.

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FYI

http://www.awbansunset.com/

[Phil Dunlop]

Thanks Jim! good luck with getting rid of it.

P.D.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Chuck,

Please allow me to correct an error in your opening post.

When IPSC Canada made their bid to host WSXIV, they had already obtained an exemption for foreign visitors to temporarily import and use +10 round capacity magazines for the match.

This was quite an achievement, and they were understandably disappointed when they failed in their bid, as were the delegates from Denmark, who also bid.

And when IPSC Ecuador won the bid, it had nothing to do magazine capacity. All else being equal, it seems the region with the lower overall costs wins.

The last WS on US soil was in 1986 and the last bid made by the US was in 1996 for WSXIII, ulitmately won by the Philippines.

AFAIK, there is nothing in US law preventing foreign competitors importing +10 round magazines, and the last two times I entered the USA with guns (pre 9/11), I had no problems.

Of course I'm aware I now need to obtain a BATF permit, but the form makes no mention of prohibiting +10 magazines.

I therefore see no legal reason why the USA could not bid to host a WS.

So, what's stopping you guys, huh?

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 2:12 am on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Chuck D]

When I asked my Area Director why the USPSA President felt Canada wasn't a good choice, he told me that costs played a major role in his decision. He also enlightened me that due to Canada's 10 round rule and the lack of concrete proof that the Canadian gov't would allow competitors to enter the country with what under Canadian law would be illegal magazines,he felt that by forcing competitors to use 10 round only magazines , not all IPSC divisions would be represented at the match as they were designed ( i.e. Open and Standard).When I asked U.S. Customs about foreign competitors bringing hi-cap magazines with them into the country for competition purposes,N.Y.States main office in Buffalo said that "they do so at their own risk".

[Vince Pinto]

So you're saying the USA didn't vote for Canada? Interesting.

[Chuck D]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying ( info given to me by my Area Director). Interesting indeed.

[Vince Pinto]

My vote, on behalf of Hong Kong, was for Canada.

Apart from the fact that most of my constituents have family in Canada, I wanted to support Canada to maintain their magazine exemption, long after WS ended.

Travelling costs for us were not a consideration, because all three venues are a minimum 15 hour haul from Asia.

[Chuck D]

I didn't want this to become a pissing contest over who voted for what,all I really wanted to highlight was the fact that if an R.D. used mag-capacity as a qualifying issue for a W.S. location then IPSC's choices for venues would be limited...and some of the venues that would NOT qualify are quality venues with both strong IPSC programs and attractive vacation attractions. Given the choice between Ecuador or Halifax Nova Scotia,the choice for me is clear( nothing against Ecuador,I'm sure they'll do a splendid job) bring on the Lobster.

(Edited by Chuck D at 1:16 pm on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Vince Pinto]

Pissing contest?? Do you use that mouth to talk to your mother?

You told me about the US vote, I told you about the HK vote. Sheesh.

[gunrunner99]

Vince Pinto wrote,

"AFAIK, there is nothing in US law preventing foreign competitors importing +10 round magazines, and the last two times I entered the USA with guns (pre 9/11), I had no problems.

Of course I'm aware I now need to obtain a BATF permit, but the form makes no mention of prohibiting +10 magazines."

I'm from Canada and when I got my Form 6, last year it specifically stated that I was prohibited from entering with any magazines that had a capacity of more than 10 rds. However, as we have to block our mags to 10rds, I leave them that way until I'm at the match. If it begins to be an issue I'll just shoot Limited 10. Hope that helps.

[Vince Pinto]

Thanks for the info.

Q31 of the latest BATF FAQ mentions +10 round mags, but only those made after 13/9/1994 but there's no way for them (or Customs who do the frontline work), to determine the DOM, unless the mags are marked "LE use only"

[Chuck D]

Vince,you've got to stop being so sensitive. No ill will intended but I've come to the conclusion that if your not careful in the way you word things....the meaning gets misunderstood. It's not an issue of "who votes for where" , it's an issue of a potential problem and are IPSC prepared to deal with it IF it ever comes to being. As far as pre-ban mags go, it isn't spelled out clearly YET but , like it or not your at the mercy of the Customs Agent. the biggest mistake you can make it to tell THEM how to do their job. Lastly, no I don't kiss my mama with that mouth,but then again she isn't as "sensitive" as you,so I doubt it would upset/worry her much!

[Vince Pinto]

Thanks Chuck. You're still an Honorary Australian!

soapbox on

I'm a big boy and I've got skin as thick as a croc. If you don't believe anything else I ever tell you, believe me when I say I can give as good as I get, and then some, especially when face-to face. Those who have met me know this.

While the general tone here is far, far better than in other forums, most people know I hold positions with IPSC, so I'm easy pickings, especially for those who hide behind a shroud of anonymity. These guys are the "bravest" of all.

Despite this, I'm still obliged to be restrained with my responses, even when they try to get a rise out of me, and these same limitations apply to USPSA Directors who post here.

This goes with the turf, and I can live with it, but if it gets too much, then it's better I just walk away, as I did with the Digest.

However I still enjoy the BE forums, and I hope my contributions help.

soapbox off

My experiences as a non-American arriving in LAX with guns pre 9/11 have been uneventful. The funny thing is that the US is the only place in the world I know where the Customs declaration form does not ask you to declare firearms!

I'll check the form when I visit again in 3 weeks time.

Of course I still do, and last time I had to approach three different Customs guys before anyone cared. The last guy was actually more curious than anything else because he was a USPSA member! We talked IPSC for a few minutes then he said "Welcome to LAX and good luck at the match", then sent me on my merry way.

That was in Y2K, when the +10 magazine law was already in force, but my 13/17 round mags were not an issue.

Things have changed since 9/11, but my 13/17 round mags still comply with US law, having been made pre-1994, so I guess I'll have to see what happens on my next visit with guns and a BATF Form 6.

I've travelled to 20 different countries with guns and I've never had a problem with law enforcement, but "security" people are a PITA, even when you declare your guns before the primary luggage scan.

Damned fools. I say "guns" they hear "dirty bomb".

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 12:43 am on Jan. 19, 2003)

[Chuck D]

Good Luck to you Mate ! If you get arrested....give me a ring. I'll bail you out !

Now back to the subject...does a 10 round only region stand a chance to get a W.S. bid?

(Edited by Chuck D at 9:30 am on Jan. 19, 2003)

[Vince Pinto]

Chuck,

The short answer is Yes.

The slightly longer answer is "Depends who else is bidding"!

If a "You-can-only-use-10-round-mags-period" region exists (?) and they are the only bidder (unlikely), then they'll get it, otherwise the delegates will consider the various bids and vote accordingly.

Ecuador just won WSXV but I already know of two regions which are seriously considering bidding for WSXVI (sorry, I'm not at liberty to say who yet).

Hosting a WS is an honour which brings high visibility to the host region, not to mention the financial boost for the host city.

It's like bidding for the Olympics but without the huge kickbacks.

Despite the fact that Canada, Denmark & Ecudaor all sent beautiful women to my room to influence my vote, I didn't let their beauty affect me.

No Sir. It takes much more than that to buy my vote.

The girl from Halifax brought lobster and beer

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 8:40 am on Jan. 19, 2003)

[BritinUSA]

Political issues aside, I was disappointed that Canada lost it's bid for the next World Shoot. A think a 10 round match would have been a sight to see, working out where and when to do that reload and the possibility of fumbles would have made for an amazing match.

<p>of course, 10 round limits = bad, very bad (but kind of interesting)

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

You missed the earlier posts. Canada secured an exemption, so their WS would not have been limited to 10 rounds.

[kaiserb]

I heard some rumors that USPSA is looking into a 10 round max magazine rule.  

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

[BarryRM 18]

There are countries that are fighting a mag capacity law, one reason they have for hi-cap mags is IPSC. Bring in a 10 rd limit and you give another set of politicians an excuse to limit our sport.  In some countries in the European continent, the antis are really powerful and have the ear of the politicos, they monitor all shooting boards, do not look to voluntary give them reasons to put forward more anti propoganda.  It is funny that the ex-communist dictatorships have the quickest growing level of shooting sports and the well established "democracys" are trying to disarm the law abiding. In some cases, UK, have succeeded.  Armed crime and hand gun deaths have increased 40% since 1997.  Gun control, works!  

Take care, stay free.

Barry

[Rob Boudrie]

I am the USPSA Area Director Chuck D spoke to, and he has relayed my comments to him with great accuracy.

USPSA President Michael Voigt did vote for Ecuador, because of both the 10 round issue and cost (The third possibility, Denmark I beleive, was very expensive).

The way I understood Michael's explaination was that they had a Canadian govt official (not sure who) committed to recommending an exemption for > 10 round visiting competitors, but this had not been formally issued. Anyone who has followed the Canadian situation since the pre-pan days is very familiar with the double-cross. When the Canadian govt was proposing the 10 round limit, competitive shooters spoke up and were told a special license would be created to address their needs. Guess what? After the law passed with a provision for a high cap mag license, the govt decision was "After consultation with gun control proponents and sporting organizations, it has been decided that the need for public safety outweighs legitimate competitive needs for these magazines and no such license shall be issued." (The quote is from memory, but it's pretty close).

But Chuck raises a very interesting, and increasingly relevant question: Would a 10 round World Shoot be acceptable?

[Vince Pinto]

Rob,

A 10 round WS is not inconceivable, but it would depend on which Regions are bidding. If there was a single bidding Region (unlikely), where +10 round mags are prohibited by law in that Region, it'd be a choice of one.

However given that costs are of increasing concern, the need to acquire 10 round mags for a single, albeit our most prestigious, match would be a significant consideration for the 900 of the 1,000 competitors who do not have mag restrictions in their own region.