Second shot often lower then first shot

[Loki999]

Hi All,

I shoot an SVI open gun with a light STI recoilmaster and my second shot is a consistant 7 o clock charlie.

Could this be because of the light recoilmaster?

When shooting fast splits on close targets it get's worse, but also on a 25meter target i see my dot after the first shot return to low c on left zo i have to overcompensate and this can't be te way to fast shooting.

I also use thumbrest but i try not to push to hard on that.

What should i do, experiment with different springs or can you guys recommend drills for this challenge?

How did you experiment with this?

Best regards,

Patrick van Hoof

[Graham Smith]

Low and to the left often indicates that you are reflexively grasping at the grip (as a response to the recoil) when pulling on the trigger on the second shot. I do it a lot

If I decrease the grip on my strong hand and increase the grip of my support hand, I can better control this.

Your mileage may vary.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Graham Smith

[CocoBolo]

Thanks for posting this question. The answers should be interesting. I'm curious. Not being a expert, I would think that you need to 1. watch the dot. 2. Tighten the grip with the left hand slightly, to offest your recoil steering. The dip may well be you overcompensating rather than the gun slamming shut too hard, but you could try dropping the recoil spring down a pound to see what happens.

I am not a fan of the Recoil master they break, I have to say I have never broken a steel guide rod.

Having the gun set up to your natural point of aim helps a bunch. Point shooitng an open gun is a lot harder than point shooing a limited gun. Try drawing on a target at say 10-12 feet away and without picking up the dot break the shot. Does it hit low consistently or where?

Edited January 19, 2010 by CocoBolo

[rvb]

If the dot always returns by dipping under the target, then do a search for "dot dip."

Here's one thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...&hl=dot+dip

A portion of the cure is hardware, most of it is software. Also search for "timing drills."

If it returns correctly most of the time (eg slow fire), then it could be a tension issue on the fast shots, or you're just whacking on the trigger throwing the gun off or simply flinching.

-rvb

[Loki999]

Hi guy's thanks for you input!

Having the gun set up to your natural point of aim helps a bunch. Point shooting an open gun is a lot harder than point shooing a limited gun

I will try this at the range, to see if te shot is to the left and low.

The recoilmaster doesn't break if you adjust it a bit, make it the same as a normal guiderod, remove a little bit from the back

so you create room for the barrel when you fire the gun.

What also can be the problem is that the disconecter mailfunctions due to a sharp edge, because sometimes i notice i have to pull the trigger a little harder as usual.

Or maybe this is all in my head and i overgrip the gun to much, i don't know but i'm gonna find out.

[Jake Di Vita]

The bottom line is the bullet is leaving the barrel when the dot is 7 o'clock low.

It doesn't matter if you are shooting the gun upside down with your weak hand....the bullet impacts where the sights were when it left the barrel. Full stop. End of story.

Point shooting an open gun is a lot harder than point shooing a limited gun

That just simply isn't true. There is nothing about an Open gun that makes it point differently than a Limited gun. In fact usually, it's the exact same platform. Any difference is in your head.

[Loki999]

It doesn't matter if you are shooting the gun upside down with your weak hand....the bullet impacts where the sights were when it left the barrel. Full stop. End of story.

Yes that is true, but there is to much movement of the sights and in match i probably don't wait for the dot to return to the alpha, resulting in these bad shots.

So i think there has to be a way, to decrease te movement of my dot.

Tomorow i will experiment with grip, stance and recoilsprings, to see if there is a difference in movement.

Because the spring of the recoilmaster is very light and maybe it's to weak.

I can't find the timingdrills are they on this site?

[rvb]

I can't find the timingdrills are they on this site?

Found them here:

http://www.doublealpha.biz/courses-tips/matts-tips/#c200

-rvb

[Jake Di Vita]

So i think there has to be a way, to decrease te movement of my dot.

You'll get the most mileage out of practice, patience, and awareness.

You might try increased aggressiveness in your stance as well.

[Loki999]

Thanks guys i'll let you know if there is any improvement in recoilcontrol.

[LPatterson]

What also can be the problem is that the disconecter mailfunctions due to a sharp edge, because sometimes i notice i have to pull the trigger a little harder as usual.

This sounds like the overtravel screw is too tight, back off slightly. Use a felt pad and dremel to polish the disconnector leg on both side and the nose where it fits in the slide. Use a fine cratex wheel to smooth and break the edge of the disconnector tunnel in the slide. I also smooth the center of the slide where the bullet is riding as the slide opens.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Are you using the same load all the time? I find the recoil spring I like at 7-10 yards from the target. I double tap fast as I can and see how they land. First shot centered second shot high(try stonger recoil spring). First shot centered, second shot low(lighter spring needed). This is what I have done for me. I usual make a 2 pound change and see the effect. It takes some time to do this and the final result may shock you. I do Bill Drills as my final test. This is what I do, your results may very. Thanks, Eric

[CocoBolo]

The nature of the question lends one to think that this open gun is new to you or new.

I'm no shade tree smith so I take mine to my smith, no big name just a little guy. I bought an STI recently that had < 500 rounds on it, just like new, still tight. The trigger was little funky so I took it in for a trigger job. When I picked it up it was awesome, for only $25.00. Turns out the gun had sat in a safe for 6 years and the lube on the trigger parts had gummed up so all it needed was a cleaning.

You can also determine your Natural point of aim by doing a few draws on an object like a picture of your boss on the wall etc. Now focus on it close your eyes and draw on it, now look at where you are. If say you consistently come up pointing at the chin and not between the eyes a raised main spring housing will get your point of aim up. If your guns is off NPA then you are constantly making adjustments to get on target. I learned this from Greg Farris, a smith that built guns for a 7 time world champion back in the 80's. I had a raised housing and was coming up high all the time changed to a regular mainspring housing and I was right on the mark.

Going from limited to open the noise and concusion of the open gun can get your brain a little on edge, so if that is the case shoot some minor loads for a while then move back to major and you won't even notice the difference. That helped me.

[G-ManBart]

Because the spring of the recoilmaster is very light and maybe it's to weak.

A lighter spring equals less dot dip, not more. If you're getting a lot ofdot dip with a RM, the problem may well be your hands, not what's in them.

Recoilmasters still break....even perfectly fit. They're better since the redesign, but they still break. R,

[Corey]

Good info on that doublealpha link. I think im going to do those timing drills the next time im on the range. thanks!

[Loki999]

(You can also determine your Natural point of aim by doing a few draws on an object like a picture of your boss on the wall etc)

Haha i like this drill, keeps me motivated!

I use to shoot standard a lot and i tranfered to open al couple of years back and i have only been shooting matches no traning at all.

Now i am training again and i start noticing all kinds of things, like the dotmovement and that my grip changes whan i actualy fire the gun.

Tonight i will try the timingdrills and stay very aware of the dotmovement and take/use the time to put the second shot in the A. I have to train my subconcious again.

I will let you know what i learned.

[Flyin40]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So i think there has to be a way, to decrease te movement of my dot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You'll get the most mileage out of practice, patience, and awareness.

You might try increased aggressiveness in your stance as well.

I have to agree with Jake here. Visual patience is critical, if your seeing your dot go to the 7oclock position then just move it to an Azone. Don't pull the trigger until you move it back over to the Azone. Do you still have a target spot on your second shot?? It may seem like it takes forever but it really doesn't. I know there is somewhere I have read the exact time it takes, maybe in Brian's book. Even if it ends up being something else learning visual patience is a must have.

It could just as well be grip etc. Its really hard to say without being there.

Flyin

[Loki999]

Yesterday i trained 280 rounds at 16 and 20 meters and i shot only 10 c's.

Splits where very slow, but i could track my dot a lot beter and i know where my challence is..it is my grip, i tighten my grip very much when ready to fire the next shot, it became clear on shots at 20 meter where i did not want to shoot a c and movement became clear.

Split times where .65 for certain a hit on 16 meter and .76-.79 for a-hit on 20 meter.

That is very slow i think?? But it's a startingpoint.

What splittimes do you guys shoot at these distances?

[Graham Smith]

i tighten my grip very much when ready to fire the next shot

Me too, that's why it was the first thing that came to mind. Have a look at this, particularly the paragraph about the weak hand. When I can remember to do it, it helps me a lot.

[Loki999]

Great tip Graham, thank you!

I will try it with my times for a while and see iff it works for me