USPSA Production - Which Tanfoglio?

[Dwight Springthorpe]

I admit that I like the Tanfoglio line. I have two - one Limited, one Gold Custom. I am looking to further this trend by getting a production gun. I would like to keep the same size frame and feel, but I need one that is legal for the production game. This is not a carry weapon, but a competition one.

I have also been looking at a glock 34 and a sig P226.

I would appreciate your thoughts, comments and experiences. Questions also are welcomed.

Thanks, Dwight

[CHA-LEE]

Dwight Springthorpe> Look at the "Stock" line of EAA/Tanfo guns. Those are what a lot of EAA shooters use in Production. EAA released the Limited-Pro not too long ago which is a short dust cover Limited frame built with a DA/SA trigger. I am not sure if this pistol meets all of the USPSA "Production Gun" requirements but that would probably be your best choice for switching to another gun but keepin the frames platform fit and feel are the same as the Limited and Gold Custom. The "Stock" pistols are smaller so they feel different in your hand.

[Rob D]

There aren't any specific requirements for production guns. To be production legal, it just has to be a gun on this list that doesn't have any unauthorized modifications.

I don't see the limited pro, but this should give you some idea of which models are even worth looking at.

[CHA-LEE]

The approved gun list that USPSA provides is usually behind the curve on being updated. Just look at the Production rules to see if the gun meets the division requirements and you should be good to go. At least for local club matches.

[Rob D]

The approved gun list that USPSA provides is usually behind the curve on being updated. Just look at the Production rules to see if the gun meets the division requirements and you should be good to go. At least for local club matches.

You can get away with a lot at local matches, but for the pistol to actually be production legal, it MUST be on the list. If it's a newer gun, USPSA may plan to evaluate it and add it to the list down the road, but until it's on the list it's not a legal gun for production. The division requirements say that each handgun must be specifically approved for the division. That said, we're generally the ones who enforce our own equipment rules. It's not like there are guys walking around checking the model numbers on production guns. They do update the list when the BOD approves a new gun, but that only seems to happen a few times a year.

[Dwight Springthorpe]

Thanks!

The list is quite extensive:

Force 38 (30 oz.), Force 38F (30 oz.), Force 38F Carry (26.5 oz.), Force 38L (31.5 oz.), Force 40 (30 oz.), Force 40F (30 oz.), Force 40F Carry (26.5 oz.), Force 40L (31.5 oz.), Force 40R (30 oz.), Force 45 (30 oz.), Force 45F (30 oz.), Force 45F Carry (26.5 oz.), Force 45L (31.5 oz.), Force 921 (30 oz.), Force 921F (30 oz.), Force 921F Carry (26.5 oz.), Force 921L (31.5 oz.), Force 921R (30 oz.), Force 921R Carry (26.5 oz.), Force 99 (30 oz.), Force 99F Carry (26.5 oz.), Force Compact 40 (26.5 oz.), Force Compact 45 (26.5 oz.), Force Compact 921 (26.5 oz.), Force Pro (26.3 oz.), GT10 (40.6 oz.), GT21 (40.6 oz.), GT21 Baby (35.3 oz.), GT21 Compact (35.3 oz.), GT23 (40.6 oz.), GT40 (40.6 oz.), GT40 Baby (35.3 oz.), GT40 Compact (35.3 oz.), GT45 (40.6 oz.), L (41.7 oz.), P19 (40.6 oz.), P19 Compact (35.3 oz.), P19 Standard (40.6 oz.), P19L (41.7 oz.), P21 Compact (35.3 oz.), P21L (41.7 oz.), P23 (40.6 oz.), P23 (40.6 oz.), P232 (40.6 oz.), P38L (41.7 oz.), P40 (40.3 oz.), P40 Compact (35.3 oz.), P40F (40.6 oz.), P40FB (35.3 oz.), P40L (41.7 oz.), P40R (40.6 oz.), P41 (40.6 oz.), P45 (40.6 oz.), P45L (41.7 oz.), Stock (40.6 oz.), Stock II (44 oz.), T94F (35.3 oz.), T94R (35.3 oz.), T95 Stock (40.6 oz.), T95R (40.6 oz.), T95ZF (40.6 oz.), T96F (35.3 oz.), T96L (41.7 oz.), T97F (40.6 oz.), T97L (41.7 oz.), T97R (40.6 oz.), TA10 (40.6 oz.), TA10 Compact (35.3 oz.), TA40FB (35.3 oz.), TA45 (40.6 oz.), TA45 Compact (35.3 oz.), TA90 (40.6 oz.), TA90 XL2 (41.7 oz.), XL4 (41.7 oz.)

(Stock Custom model is NOT approved for Production Division)

Unfortunately, I am not well versed on the different models numbers, what may be good or not and what is working for others. I did not even know about the Limited Pro. Although it's specs look like the perfect production gun.

The Stock II is listed on Tanfoglio's site as being for production.

Any of you have any thoguhts about the Stock II (like its model number)?

What are you folks using in Production Class? Are most of you going with 9mm or are you so acustomed to .40 that you are using it?

Thanks again. Dwight

Edited January 6, 2010 by Dwight Springthorpe

[pivoproseem]

As much as I like Tanfoglios...for production, you can't really beat a CZ SP-01 or Shadow. That is , as long as the gun has the 85 Combat trigger in it. Those black curved triggers CZ puts in some guns SUCKS. Close enough in feel to a Tanfo to not make a difference.

I admit that I like the Tanfoglio line. I have two - one Limited, one Gold Custom. I am looking to further this trend by getting a production gun. I would like to keep the same size frame and feel, but I need one that is legal for the production game. This is not a carry weapon, but a competition one.

I have also been looking at a glock 34 and a sig P226.

I would appreciate your thoughts, comments and experiences. Questions also are welcomed.

Thanks, Dwight

[JorDanO]

I have a Stock 2 in .40. I like it a lot. It's pretty versatile. I can shoot minor loads for production or shoot limited with major loads and 22 round mags.

That being said, I shoot my Shadow a little better, so I'm sticking with it for my main production gun.

[photog]

One thing that bothers me is the list has both Tanfoglio and EAA as "MAKE". But EAA doesn't make anything, they import. The list has "Witness" listed. So is the Witness Limited Pro just a factory upgraded pistol, like the CZ SP01 Shadow? If so, shouldn't it be easy to get it on the list??

[Rob D]

Also make sure you check the list under EAA, since a lot of the tangfolio variants were brought in under that name.

Edited to add****

A lot of guns aren't on the list simply because the manufacturers haven't submitted the paperwork to have them put on the list. If there's a gun that you think should be on the list but isn't, e-mail the company and see what happens.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Rob D

[Chris Spiess]

The Stock II is listed on Tanfoglio's site as being for production.

What are you folks using in Production Class? Are most of you going with 9mm or are you so acustomed to .40 that you are using it?

The comment on the Tanfoglio site regarding the Stock II as allowed in Production class is referring to IPSC production class, which is different than USPSA Production class.

USPSA production gun requirements:

1. 2000 manufactured and available to the general public .
   
2. No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell, the lateral internal width of the well may not be more than 1/4" wider than the lateral width of the magazine. The lateral width of the well to mean the narrow width where the mainspring housing is inserted, the lateral width of the magazine to mean the narrow side that faces the mainspring housing when inserted into the handgun.
   
3. Must meet the criteria listed in the appendix of the current rule book as well as that listed above.
   
4. The gun must be viewed by NROI prior to its acceptance.
   
5. A production gun approval form filled out and signed and returned to NROI.
   

Specifically on the USPSA production list for Tanfoglio, "Stock Custom model is NOT approved for Production Division"; and for EAA, "Witness Carry Comp, Gold, Silver and Limited versions are not approved"

Personally, I would go with an Elite Stock in either 9mm or .40. The 9mm will be cheaper to shoot, even if you do reload your own ammunition, but some folks will argue that .40 minor shoots softer than 9mm minor. Going the .40 route would give you the option of shooting it in limited though at some point as well, if that is at all desirable.

One thing that bothers me is the list has both Tanfoglio and EAA as "MAKE". But EAA doesn't make anything, they import. The list has "Witness" listed. So is the Witness Limited Pro just a factory upgraded pistol, like the CZ SP01 Shadow? If so, shouldn't it be easy to get it on the list??

EAA isn't the only one in that position on the list. They're just listing the marketed name. EAA is a bit confusing though because they are listed as both EAA and Witness. I wouldn't bother trying to make the argument at any major match that I have an EAA whatever that isn't on the list, but it's the same as the Tanfoglio model X that's on the list. You'll find yourself scored in open no matter what. You'll be fine at any local matches as long as your double action first shot at least. Does anyone every really check out closely what everyone else is shooting. It's no different than folks who claim major but really aren't.

I also wouldn't hold out for the Limited Pro with it's full length dust cover to show up on the list at any point - except maybe to specifically state that it isn't approved.

[Chris Spiess]

The "Stock" pistols are smaller so they feel different in your hand.

Aren't all the EAA Witness models the large frame?

[NOSAJ19]

I admit that I like the Tanfoglio line. I have two - one Limited, one Gold Custom. I am looking to further this trend by getting a production gun. I would like to keep the same size frame and feel, but I need one that is legal for the production.

The only answer based on your requirements is, Stock II. If you like the Tanfoglio's & you do, as I do, this is the hottest ticket in the Tanfoglio line.

FYI, Adam Tyc IPSC Production Division World Champion, shoots a CZ 75 SP01 Shadow with a curver trigger, not an 85 combat trigger. This trigger is same/similar to Stock II trigger profile. I think the Tanfoglio frame being so large requires this profile trigger. A shooter with smaller hands may not be able to reach a straighter trigger.

Cheers, Ando.

[CHA-LEE]

The "Stock" pistols are smaller so they feel different in your hand.

Aren't all the EAA Witness models the large frame?

Not from what I have seen personally. If you take Limited and Match frames and line them up to one another they are different in some dimensions. For example, the Limited grip is a little longer than the Match. The bever tail is also different between the two, the Limited is a little longer. So if you have wide hands the Limited frame will feel less cramped than the Match. This difference becomes very obvious when you put the after market Canyon Creek magwell on the guns.

Getting subtle difference in size information from EAA is nearly impossible as well so you are pretty much left with figuring it out on your own.

[Mo Hepworth]

The "Stock" pistols are smaller so they feel different in your hand.

Aren't all the EAA Witness models the large frame?

Not from what I have seen personally. If you take Limited and Match frames and line them up to one another they are different in some dimensions. For example, the Limited grip is a little longer than the Match. The bever tail is also different between the two, the Limited is a little longer. So if you have wide hands the Limited frame will feel less cramped than the Match. This difference becomes very obvious when you put the after market Canyon Creek magwell on the guns.

Getting subtle difference in size information from EAA is nearly impossible as well so you are pretty much left with figuring it out on your own.

Just going to add to this with my findings. The Limited Custom .40 I have uses the large mags, while my Stock 2 9mm uses small frame mags. These guns are not supposed to be much different, except internally in the grip. (hence bigger mags vs smaller mags). I measured mine and found about a 1mm overall in length (Limited Custom .40 is longer)from back frame under the beavertail to the front of the grip (behind the trigger). Width was barely any different. This may not sound like much, but it makes a difference overall with my ability to press the mag release on both guns. Both have Henning grips, and I the LImited Custom just needed a bit shaved off in order for me to consistantly press the mag release, whereas my Stock2 needed no material removed.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Mo Hepworth

[NOSAJ19]

Match frame is similar in size to CZ 75B frame.

Witness/Limited/Stock frame is similar in size to CZ Tactical Sport frame.

Basically the Match is a smaller frame with a rounded trigger guard. Witness/Limited/Stock frame is larger with squared trigger guard.

Witness/Limited/Stock has 2 frame sizes. My Limited & Stock II are both 38 super guns with large frames. I have shot a Stock II 9mm & this gun was slightly smaller in length & grip circumference.

For comparison, a CZ 75 aluminium grip will fit the 9mm Stock II gun. It will go on a Limited 38super, but there will be a gap between the grip & frame. Swapping slide & frame between the 2 Tanfoglio frame sizes guns will give another indication on size comparison.

Mo, can I ask you to consider posting photo's of the above combinations for visual conformation?

Cheers, Ando.

Edited January 8, 2010 by NOSAJ19