SIG P238 Problems

[Flint]

I have a Sig P238 - 1911 style aka Colt Mustang if you will.

Here is my issue that I am not getting any help with from the Sig folks....

What is going on that causes my brass to be Chomped and Dinged all up?

Here is a picture...

I have had is sent back to Sig and supposedly they tweaked the Extractor.

I am not having stovepipes or empty cases actually caught, but I have several Failure to Feed issues and I am thinking that when the slide is coming forward and taking a bite at the brass, this is slowing the slide and also the spent casing interrupts the next round that is trying to feed. This then noses the FMJ into the feed ramp and all the fun stops.

This thing will also throw brass everywhere. I have been hit in the face with brass and end up with brass in my shirt pocket.

Arms Talk photo's on post #18

Post #18 on this thread shows pictures that look all to familiar too me, with the exception of the spent case actually caught.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Hey I need all the brass I have to keep my 1050 from Brian fed!

[fastarget]

are these factory rounds or your reloads??

[Flint]

are these factory rounds or your reloads??

Should have clarified that. All Factory ammo, all FMJ - hey if it can't handle that, why bother trying the expensive stuff.

I have been trying to break this in and in the past 3 months have 750 rounds through it, (100 of that Sig supposedly put through). Still not right and thinking there has to be a logical explanation that can be resolved.

Thanks for your interest.

[fastarget]

just a guess, the brass is getting bitten by the slide as it is closing. On these little frames same as my Kahr, they are finicky, my reloads in the Karh

it did that too, but defense ammo it runs like a swiss clock with.....sometimes a drag on the slide, a tight spring (sigs, yes).

Try some defense ammo and see if it does the same.

[Flint]

just a guess, the brass is getting bitten by the slide as it is closing. On these little frames same as my Kahr, they are finicky, my reloads in the Karh

it did that too, but defense ammo it runs like a swiss clock with.....sometimes a drag on the slide, a tight spring (sigs, yes).

Try some defense ammo and see if it does the same.

I have seen some posts elsewhere that indicated that higher powered defensive ammo they had no issues. I have not tried this. Burning through 100 - 200 rounds of that would be pricey. But maybe that is another step after I try the new mag they sent me.

Slide is not showing wear and it is very smooth, especially after 750 rounds and a couple hundred additional cycles of the slide to help things along.

Regarding the Spring. Supposedly mine has an 11# spring. Some are trying a Wolff 12# Spring and looks like some of the new pistols have what appears to be a 12# spring. How would I check for a tight spring? And why would they be putting in a stronger spring if this were the case???

Thanks for your thoughts.

[fastarget]

as far as springs are concerned for a defense weapon, I would stick with the factory spring. I did not mean that the fact. is putting in a stronger spring, sometimes you get one a bit stiffer in the batch, it would take longer to break in the spring ( full size sig springs go 5K rounds before replacing if I remember correctly not sure about the 238/239). if they equip it with a light spring for plinking ammo it will hammer the frame, if they go too stiff it will work with +P but not the light stuff.

A good friend carries a 239, it has about 5-6k through it and it seems to cycle anything, my Kahr wont, it only likes them hot.

Personally and only my opinion, I want to make sure my defensive weapon eats what I will be using in it when carrying it. Try 20 rnds of your carry ammo. If the problems go away great. After that Keep shooting it with the regular stuff until it is hungry enough to eat anything.

[Flint]

as far as springs are concerned for a defense weapon, I would stick with the factory spring. I did not mean that the fact. is putting in a stronger spring, sometimes you get one a bit stiffer in the batch, it would take longer to break in the spring ( full size sig springs go 5K rounds before replacing if I remember correctly not sure about the 238/239). if they equip it with a light spring for plinking ammo it will hammer the frame, if they go too stiff it will work with +P but not the light stuff.

A good friend carries a 239, it has about 5-6k through it and it seems to cycle anything, my Kahr wont, it only likes them hot.

Personally and only my opinion, I want to make sure my defensive weapon eats what I will be using in it when carrying it. Try 20 rnds of your carry ammo. If the problems go away great. After that Keep shooting it with the regular stuff until it is hungry enough to eat anything.

Understand about the defensive ammo and testing it before carry. Was just trying to get it to work and then test defensive. I can go as many as 60 rounds without Failure to Feed at the moment, but the chewed up brass has me concerned.

The spring change over is something like 1,500 rounds in this one. And like I mentioned seems like they are going with the heavier spring now. But, see posts by folks with two different springs in two diff guns and no issues for them...

Thanks.

[lucasb67]

flint, they seem like results of stove pipe ... are you shure that they aren't?

[Flint]

flint, they seem like results of stove pipe ... are you shure that they aren't?

There has never been any brass actually caught and retained in the action of the gun. So no "stovepipe".

Some pic's in the link at the top of the thread, as noted.

IF... they were stovepipes, then the extractor would need to be adjusted, but the Factory just did that???

Edited January 4, 2010 by Flint

[Duane Thomas]

Looks to me like the brass is hitting the edges of the ejection port while exiting the gun. This is not, in and of itself, a problem. I'd be much more concerned about the failures to feed. Sounds like the slide is not traveling quite far enough to the rear during cycling. A slightly lighter recoil spring might actually be a good fix for that problem.

[Merlin Orr]

I would also check the slide for full travel. Might be the spring is to long and needs a few coils cut off. If the spring is stacking solid you have less of a window in both time and space for the spent case to exit the gun.

Get a "real" gunsmith to tune the extractor.

[Flint]

Looks to me like the brass is hitting the edges of the ejection port while exiting the gun. This is not, in and of itself, a problem. I'd be much more concerned about the failures to feed. Sounds like the slide is not traveling quite far enough to the rear during cycling. A slightly lighter recoil spring might actually be a good fix for that problem.

Or I need to shoot heavier ammo, so I have a couple hundred rounds on order to test.

Odd apparently the current guns rolling off the line have a HEAVIER recoil spring... Seems counter-intuitive to me

What's the "standard" 1911 extractor tweak??? My brother did that at my shop a couple weeks ago in the vise, was not around, will see him tonight hopefully.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in here.

[Flint]

I would also check the slide for full travel. Might be the spring is to long and needs a few coils cut off. If the spring is stacking solid you have less of a window in both time and space for the spent case to exit the gun.

Get a "real" gunsmith to tune the extractor.

Ok, thinking on the same line with the extractor here, Merlin Orr.

Note my post that Sig is going the other way on the recoil spring, making it longer and up from 11# to 12# supposedly.

Or maybe as noted it is designed for heavy defensive ammo only, so I have some of that on order to try.

Should not be this difficult.

[fastarget]

It should not be difficult, you are right, and I am sure after more shooting it will get smoother.

Manufacturers have had issues with short guns (kimber 3"), nighthawk, etc. The guns maybe less forgiving since the spring and action are so much shorter and need to be tuned to do one thing or another. I may be wrong, and it is only my observation. After a good smith gets hold of them, the guns run perfectly.

keep us posted after you run the defense ammo.

[DougCarden]

This is a close copy of the Colt .380 Unit. If you get stumped, I would call Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide. I was jawing with him at Bianchi last year and he told me about the Sigs coming out, He had high hopes for them. He also clued me in that these little guns are not made for a lot of rounds, period.

I shelled out a Kahr PM9 in 1400 rounds ( they replaced it of course) of factory ammo and found I had to replace the recoil spring every 500 rds.

I am thinking a lowering and scalloping of the rear ejection port ala the old Series 70 slides would take care of the case mouth dings perhaps.

Keep at it, and good luck.

DougC

[Duane Thomas]

How many rounds do you have through the gun? Have you replaced the recoil spring yet? Bear in mind that, as Doug mentioned in the previous post, short barreled auto pistols with single wire recoil springs tend to have very short lifespans recoil spring-wise. The recoil spring tunnel is barely longer than the recoil spring itself, therefore there's very little preload (compression of the recoil spring with corresponding forward pressure on the slide) when the action is closed. Fire the gun only a little, the spring compresses just a bit, and you have too little energy to reliably operate the gun. Guns like the original Officer's ACPs needed to have their recoil springs replaced every 300-500 rounds. Your SIG P238 may fall into the same category. Did the malfs occur right off the bat, or only after you'd shot the gun for awhile? If so, a new recoil spring might solve the problem.

Can't believe I didn't think of that right off the bat. I hang my head in shame.

[Flint]

Have about 750 through it now.

Original recoil spring.

Sig recommends 1,500 and replace.

Malfunctions were from the first mag on.... Though now it is down to 3% Failure to Feed. But the dinged up brass has me worried...

[Duane Thomas]

Why so worried about the dinged-up brass? Again, I'd worry more about the gun not feeding.

[Flint]

Why so worried about the dinged-up brass? Again, I'd worry more about the gun not feeding.

One if it is chewed up I can't reload it.

More importantly it indicates to me something is not functioning properly, which may solve my Failure to Feed issues.

My theory is as the brass is being caught in the action it slows the slide and interrupts the feeding of the next round and may even hold some pressure ever so briefly on the feeding round, possibly pointing it down into the feed ramp.

Could be all wrong.

[Flint]

Well it's never gotten better, looked at the extractor cleaned and seemed ok.

Tried all sorts of different ammo.

Got a new mag from Sig.

Change recoil spring.

Countless - endless failures in the 6 - 14% range.

Slide stop is just barely catching the slide and dinging that up in addition to stopping the fun.

Classic one last time was a stovepipe, but not any I have ever seen. This was a live round sticking straight up and caught in the slide. So that took me a few days to calm down and write a letter to Sig's upper crust. We will see what happens there. Hope I get a replacement (NEW) that I can sell/trade for something that functions.

Upside to all this is I have fired 1,000 rounds of 380 and have more to reload on the 1050 See there was silver lining somewhere in all of this.

[Duane Thomas]

Why not try a lighter recoil spring just to see what happens? At this point what do you have to lose?

[ParaGunner]

Did you ever see if the recoil spring is stacking?

[Flint]

Why not try a lighter recoil spring just to see what happens? At this point what do you have to lose?

I tried hotter ammo no better, tried a new spring - no better. The 11# is the light one.

[JimmyZip]

Have you tried slowly hand-cycling the gun to see what the FTF issues are? Are the rounds dragging on the front of the mags? Some of the brass looks like it is dragging on the magazine and that would cause a FTF. If the chamber is generous enough, they might still chamber, but would result in some of the lips being folded a bit. The others that seem more dented, that isn't what I'm referring to. That type of dent is usually caused during ejection.

What type of mags are you using? Does this happen with all of them? Number them and try hand cycling and just shooting the pistol. This should point to a mag problem if that is what it is.

JZ

[Flint]

Did you ever see if the recoil spring is stacking?

By stacking do you mean that it gets bound up in some fashion. How could I watch this. Maybe I am just tired, but do not "see" how I could check. I have looked for imperfections which might catch on the rod, but see nothing. Keep that clean and oiled as well.