SD and ES very high with Dillon 550...it is normal?

[Rufftytuffty]

Took my new CED chrono to the range for the first time today...it yielded some interesting data.

Both my SD & ES are very high...was told 5-10 and 10-20 would be 'normal'.

DPMS LR-308 16.5" barrel

175 SMK

WIN brass

WIN primer

Varget

CED Data Collector - 12/21/09

(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)

Total Strings = 7

Feet Per Second

41.0 gr - String 1

1) 2350.0 20.8

2) 2323.0 -6.2

3) 2332.0 2.8

4) 2305.0 -24.2

5) 2287.0 -42.2

6) 2316.0 -13.2

7) 2346.0 16.8

8) 2314.0 -15.2

9) 2364.0 34.8

10) 2355.0 25.8

High: 2364.0

Low: 2287.0

E.S.: 77.0

Ave.: 2329.2

S.D.: 24.5

95%: ±18.5

41.5 gr - String 2

1) 2380.0 10.1

2) 2357.0 -12.9

3) 2405.0 35.1

4) 2358.0 -11.9

5) 2394.0 24.1

6) 2381.0 11.1

7) 2365.0 -4.9

8) 2323.0 -46.9

9) 2366.0 -3.9

High: 2405.0

Low: 2323.0

E.S.: 82.0

Ave.: 2369.9

S.D.: 23.9

95%: ±19.5

42.0 gr - String 3

1) 2383.0 -2.9

2) 2349.0 -36.9

3) 2377.0 -8.9

4) 2343.0 -42.9

5) 2383.0 -2.9

6) 2392.0 6.1

7) 2366.0 -19.9

8) 2437.0 51.1

9) 2443.0 57.1

High: 2443.0

Low: 2343.0

E.S.: 100.0

Ave.: 2385.9

S.D.: 34.6

95%: ±28.2

42.5 gr - String 4

1) 2483.0 97.0

2) 2407.0 21.0

3) 2344.0 -42.0

4) 2361.0 -25.0

5) 2340.0 -46.0

6) 2345.0 -41.0

7) 2422.0 36.0

8) 2383.0 -3.0

9) 2389.0 3.0

High: 2483.0

Low: 2340.0

E.S.: 143.0

Ave.: 2386.0

S.D.: 46.6

95%: ±38.0

43.0 gr - String 5

1) 2410.0 22.3

2) 2371.0 -16.7

3) 2391.0 3.3

4) 2351.0 -36.7

5) 2393.0 5.3

6) 2417.0 29.3

7) 2400.0 12.3

8) 2366.0 -21.7

9) 2390.0 2.3

High: 2417.0

Low: 2351.0

E.S.: 66.0

Ave.: 2387.7

S.D.: 21.4

95%: ±17.5

43.5 gr - String 6

1) 2383.0 -12.1

2) 2374.0 -21.1

3) 2401.0 5.9

4) 2396.0 0.9

5) 2388.0 -7.1

6) 2366.0 -29.1

7) 2411.0 15.9

8) 2409.0 13.9

9) 2429.0 33.9

10) 2394.0 -1.1

High: 2429.0

Low: 2366.0

E.S.: 63.0

Ave.: 2395.1

S.D.: 18.6

95%: ±14.0

44.0 gr - String 7

1) 2451.0 37.6

2) 2408.0 -5.4

3) 2396.0 -17.4

4) 2398.0 -15.4

5) 2395.0 -18.4

6) 2437.0 23.6

7) 2411.0 -2.4

8) 2403.0 -10.4

9) 2422.0 8.6

High: 2451.0

Low: 2395.0

E.S.: 56.0

Ave.: 2413.4

S.D.: 19.6

95%: ±16.0

(End Of Data)

Any thoughts?

Going to try the low (40.0 gr) and high (45.0 gr) ends later this week.

Best groups were at 41.5 and 42.0...although 42.0 has been my go to load until now.

~Mike

Edited December 21, 2009 by Rufftytuffty

[Joe4d]

your reloading data is incomplete, lots of people here can help but we need complete information, Like powder type ? Dies ? overall length?

WIN we get but dont assume we know what your other abbreviations mean,

I would guess you are using a powder that isnt suitable for the application and powder measure you are using.

[Rufftytuffty]

your reloading data is incomplete, lots of people here can help but we need complete information, Like powder type ? Dies ? overall length?

WIN we get but dont assume we know what your other abbreviations mean,

I would guess you are using a powder that isnt suitable for the application and powder measure you are using.

Powder = Varget

Dies = RCBS X-dies

OAL = 2.785 +/- 0.005

Trim length = 2.005

WIN = Winchester

SMK = Sierra Match King bullets

We all know the Dillon doesn't throw the same but from my checks mine isn't abnormal...+/- 0.1-0.4

Will try some Blackhills match later as a control base group.

~Mike

Edited December 22, 2009 by Rufftytuffty

[maineshootah]

\

I would guess you are using a powder that isnt suitable for the application and powder measure you are using.

Powder = Varget

That is one of the issues there.. I bet you are cutting/crushing powder on on the upstroke.

[ajg308]

Varget (actually any extruded powder) and the dillon powder measure don't mix. Judging by your velocities I would also guess that you are not using enough powder. Use should be somewhere 2550 and 2650. Since you are using a shorter barrel you might need more powder than you think. Most recipies in load books are for guns 6-8 inches longer than what you are running.

The other issue might be the CED chrono. I have had several bad experiences with them.

I have only loaded .40 on my 650, but I got an ES of 7 and an SD of 3. I would think with the right load and powder your Dillon should do much better.

[ajg308]

One other thing. A friend of mine loaded some Varget and was about 3 grains under what it should have been. We never chronoed it, but it was shooting 3-4 inch groups at a 100. Horrible out of a match gun. He then loaded with more powder and the group was MOA or less after that.

[Rufftytuffty]

\

I would guess you are using a powder that isnt suitable for the application and powder measure you are using.

Powder = Varget

That is one of the issues there.. I bet you are cutting/crushing powder on on the upstroke.

I have pulled my bullets before and the powder doesn't look crushed.

A google search found another thread on BE its related to pistol but some good info.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/lofiversio...php/t97744.html

~Mike

Edited December 22, 2009 by Rufftytuffty

[Rufftytuffty]

One other thing. A friend of mine loaded some Varget and was about 3 grains under what it should have been. We never chronoed it, but it was shooting 3-4 inch groups at a 100. Horrible out of a match gun. He then loaded with more powder and the group was MOA or less after that.

Yes...looking into this right now.

It appears too little powder will cause the SD to vary.

As you can see from the chrono results...as the grain weight increased the SD goes down.

Will load up some 44.5, 45.0 and 45.5 and test it with the BH match.

Thanks, Mike

[Rufftytuffty]

Found this...

308 match ammo comparison-Remington 700 SPS-V (700P)

Ammo Avg Velocity Std Dev Extr Sprd

Hornady 168gr Match 2694 fps 13.20 fps 43 fps

Winchester 168gr Supreme Match 2652 fps 16.16 fps 56 fps

Blackhills 168gr Match 2694 fps 20.52 fps 60 fps

Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match 2682 fps 9.23 fps 27 fps

HSM 168gr Match 2602 fps 22.60 fps 67 fps

Lapua 167gr Aficionado+ 2836 fps 23.85 fps 58 fps

Remington 168gr Premier Match 2716 fps 26.87 fps 87 fps

ABT 168gr 2704 fps 9.37 fps 34 fps

Norma 168gr Diamond Line 2545 fps 15.10 fps 48 fps

HSM 168gr Match Range 2739 fps 28.36 fps 77 fps

Fiocchi 168gr Exacta Rifle Match 2687 fps 16.55 fps 48 fps

HSM 168gr AMAX Match 2668 fps 34.78 fps 94 fps

Ultramax 168gr BTHP Remanufactured 2684 fps 25.69 fps 70 fps

Cor-Bon 168gr HPBT Performance Match 2722 fps 23.04 fps 90 fps

Spring River 168gr Custom 2652 fps 12.42 fps 29 fps

Average 2685.1 fps 19.85 fps 59.2 fps

http://www.snipercentral.com/matchammo.htm

[dillon]

A 16.5" barrel is also probably a bit short to consistantly burn all the powder. Most sources indicate an 18" barrel is necessary in .308 Winchester to get all the powder to burn. A hotter load helps with ignition, and should reduce your ES and SD, as previous posters have stated. With accuracy of the powder drops, it helps to slow down on the handle downstroke as the powder bar travels. It should take at least one full second to move the powder bar from one side to the other. Also be sure the blue wingnut on the failsafe rod is properly set.. With the handle pushed forward as if seating a primer, the coil spring above the blue wingnut should be partially compressed.

[warpspeed]

I've not had powder issues with Varget and Dillon but some have so I suppose it is possible.

I'd suggest loading up the old fashion way ; a single stage press and drop & trickle. Find the load the gun likes them go to the Blue Press to load volumes.

It takes the variable one big variable out of the equation. Maybe the gun just does not like Varget? or the SMKs ?

[Rufftytuffty]

Thanks for everyones help.

Gave the press return spring some slack...just has pressure on forward push now and the press feels much smoother.

Although i'm not a speed junkie reloader...about 45 mins for 100 rifle rds...i slowed down even more to the 1 second powder bar rule.

Here are the chrono results for the higher grain loads all the ES's and SD's are much better.

String 3 with 45.0 gr was sweet...put 14 in the same ragged hole at 100 yds with very little effort...cool!!!

Started to loose a few primers after 44.0 gr...i guess my 8 times reloaded brass can't hold the pressure.

Think i'll stick with 45.0 gr for now as it seems to be accuracy node for my rifle.

CED Data Collector - 12/23/09

(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)

Total Strings = 4

Feet Per Second

44.0gr - String 1

1) 2453.0 11.5

2) 2427.0 -14.5

3) 2437.0 -4.5

4) 2424.0 -17.5

5) 2427.0 -14.5

6) 2465.0 23.5

7) 2450.0 8.5

8) 2450.0 8.5

9) 2440.0 -1.5

10) 2442.0 0.5

High: 2465.0

Low: 2424.0

E.S.: 41.0

Ave.: 2441.5

S.D.: 13.2

95%: ±10.0

44.5 gr - String 2

1) 2486.0 22.8

2) 2474.0 10.8

3) 2456.0 -7.2

4) 2465.0 1.8

5) 2472.0 8.8

6) 2465.0 1.8

7) 2485.0 21.8

8) 2451.0 -12.2

9) 2498.0 34.8

10) 2433.0 -30.2

11) 2445.0 -18.2

12) 2501.0 37.8

13) 2477.0 13.8

14) 2448.0 -15.2

15) 2442.0 -21.2

16) 2430.0 -33.2

17) 2456.0 -7.2

18) 2454.0 -9.2

High: 2501.0

Low: 2430.0

E.S.: 71.0

Ave.: 2463.2

S.D.: 20.8

95%: ±10.6

45.0 gr - String 3

1) 2507.0 4.2

2) 2481.0 -21.8

3) 2503.0 0.2

4) 2489.0 -13.8

5) 2516.0 13.2

6) 2498.0 -4.8

7) 2502.0 -0.8

8) 2502.0 -0.8

9) 2503.0 0.2

10) 2517.0 14.2

11) 2501.0 -1.8

12) 2499.0 -3.8

13) 2506.0 3.2

14) 2522.0 19.2

15) 2495.0 -7.8

16) 2503.0 0.2

High: 2522.0

Low: 2481.0

E.S.: 41.0

Ave.: 2502.8

S.D.: 10.1

95%: ±5.6

45.5 gr - String 4

1) 2512.0 -20.2

2) 2526.0 -6.2

3) 2573.0 40.8

4) 2543.0 10.8

5) 2558.0 25.8

6) 2548.0 15.8

7) 2507.0 -25.2

8) 2509.0 -23.2

9) 2562.0 29.8

10) 2526.0 -6.2

11) 2526.0 -6.2

12) 2537.0 4.8

13) 2539.0 6.8

14) 2521.0 -11.2

15) 2532.0 -0.2

16) 2508.0 -24.2

17) 2520.0 -12.2

High: 2573.0

Low: 2507.0

E.S.: 66.0

Ave.: 2532.2

S.D.: 19.7

95%: ±10.4

(End Of Data)

Edited December 23, 2009 by Rufftytuffty

[dillon]

Just from me personally, but I wont load brass fired in my M1A more than 4 or 5 times before I scrap it out.

[Ray_Z]

You might try weighting a dozen charges as they come off the shell plate to see if there is a variation in the charges actually being thrown. But any extruded powder is known for not going through a powder measure with great accuracy. I always use my RCBS chargemaster when I am loading with extruded powders. I put a powder funnel in the hole where the powder measure would have gone. It may take a bit longer, but I know that the charge is +- .1gr this way. When I'm shooting a match I try to be in as much hurry as I can be. When I'm putting together something that is going to generate 50,000 PSI I tend to take my time a little more. Besides, when I get done loading, all I can think of to do is go upstairs and nag my wife for more stuff on my honey do list. (NOT)

[Rufftytuffty]

Ok 45.0 Gr is not gonna work for me.

Went to the range with 100 rds loaded up with 45.0 gr of varget a few days ago...brass was new WIN.

Ended up blowing out 15 primers and several more were sticking out and all were flattened.

So....

I decided to start again at 41.5 to 44.5 with some Black Hills Match as a control group.

Here are the results before the chrono died on 43.0....arrgghhhh!!! (working with CED to fix it).

CED Data Collector - 12/27/09

(f = flyers, (ED) = edited shots)

Total Strings = 8

Feet Per Second

41.5 gr - String 1

1) 2415.0 64.7

2) 2316.0 -34.3

3) 2329.0 -21.3

4) 2380.0 29.7

5) 2341.0 -9.3

6) 2328.0 -22.3

7) 2356.0 5.7

8) 2354.0 3.7

9) 2372.0 21.7

10) 2312.0 -38.3

High: 2415.0

Low: 2312.0

E.S.: 103.0

Ave.: 2350.3

S.D.: 32.1

95%: ±24.2

41.5 gr - String 2

1) 2373.0 19.2

2) 2367.0 13.2

3) 2346.0 -7.8

4) 2339.0 -14.8

5) 2368.0 14.2

6) 2386.0 32.2

7) 2298.0 -55.8 f

8) 2345.0 -8.8

9) 2365.0 11.2

10) 2351.0 -2.8

High: 2386.0

Low: 2298.0

E.S.: 88.0

Ave.: 2353.8

S.D.: 24.5

95%: ±18.5

42.0 gr - String 3

1) 2412.0 32.7

2) 2388.0 8.7

3) 2363.0 -16.3

4) 2386.0 6.7

5) 2379.0 -0.3

6) 2363.0 -16.3

7) 2409.0 29.7

8) 2364.0 -15.3

9) 2350.0 -29.3

High: 2412.0

Low: 2350.0

E.S.: 62.0

Ave.: 2379.3

S.D.: 21.5

95%: ±17.5

42.0 gr - String 4

1) 2388.0 19.8

2) 2377.0 8.8

3) 2340.0 -28.2

4) 2373.0 4.8

5) 2358.0 -10.2

6) 2357.0 -11.2

7) 2371.0 2.8

8) 2371.0 2.8

9) 2356.0 -12.2

10) 2391.0 22.8

High: 2391.0

Low: 2340.0

E.S.: 51.0

Ave.: 2368.2

S.D.: 15.6

95%: ±11.8

42.5 gr - String 5

1) 2435.0 29.8

2) 2426.0 20.8

3) 2381.0 -24.2

4) 2436.0 30.8

5) 2388.0 -17.2

6) 2373.0 -32.2

7) 2381.0 -24.2

8) 2416.0 10.8

9) 2422.0 16.8

10) 2394.0 -11.2

High: 2436.0

Low: 2373.0

E.S.: 63.0

Ave.: 2405.2

S.D.: 24.3

95%: ±18.3

42.5 gr - String 6

1) 2430.0 28.0

2) 2426.0 24.0

3) 2411.0 9.0

4) 2391.0 -11.0

5) 2377.0 -25.0

6) 2391.0 -11.0

7) 2372.0 -30.0

8) 2418.0 16.0

High: 2430.0

Low: 2372.0

E.S.: 58.0

Ave.: 2402.0

S.D.: 22.2

95%: ±19.8

BH Match - String 7

1) 2383.0 -68.4 f

2) 2450.0 -1.4

3) 2476.0 24.6

4) 2443.0 -8.4

5) 2470.0 18.6

6) 2460.0 8.6

7) 2458.0 6.6

8) 2446.0 -5.4

9) 2437.0 -14.4

10) 2491.0 39.6

High: 2491.0

Low: 2383.0

E.S.: 108.0

Ave.: 2451.4

S.D.: 29.1

95%: ±21.9

BH Match - String 8

1) 2473.0 24.2

2) 2460.0 11.2

3) 2473.0 24.2

4) 2460.0 11.2

5) 2456.0 7.2

6) 2401.0 -47.8

7) 2453.0 4.2

8) 2392.0 -56.8

9) 2487.0 38.2

10) 2433.0 -15.8

High: 2487.0

Low: 2392.0

E.S.: 95.0

Ave.: 2448.8

S.D.: 31.1

95%: ±23.5

Interesting to see the BH match ES and SD is not as good as the reloads and that the velocity is 'only' 2,450fps.

Seems that my barrel/chamber is limiting the max speed.

Again...the 42.5 and 43.0 (no chrono for 43.0) had the best groups.

Will fix the chrono and reloaded 42.0 to 43.0 in 0.2 gr increments and finish the testing of the 43.0 to 44.5.

~Mike

Edited December 28, 2009 by Rufftytuffty