Grouping low and to the right.

[Heavy Barrel]

I was at the range today after installing a set of night sights on my M&P 40. To see if I need to change the position of the sights.

After shooting 100 rounds of Winchester 180gr WinClean, trying all three sizes of back straps, both strong and weak hand. The gun consistently grouped about the size of a soft ball, but low (approx 3-4") and to the right (3-4") at seven yards.

I figured with the sight tool that I used to install the sights with. I could correct the (3-4") to the right.

But the (3-4") low what could/should I to do in order to correct that?.

[JThompson]

Take some metal off the front sight...

Edited November 29, 2009 by JThompson

[Dave C]

I was at the range today after installing a set of night sights on my M&P 40. To see if I need to change the position of the sights.

After shooting 100 rounds of Winchester 180gr WinClean, trying all three sizes of back straps, both strong and weak hand. The gun consistently grouped about the size of a soft ball, but low (approx 3-4") and to the right (3-4") at seven yards.

I figured with the sight tool that I used to install the sights with. I could correct the (3-4") to the right.

But the (3-4") low what could/should I to do in order to correct that?.

If your using a 6 o'clock hold, try covering what you want to hit with the front sight. Or, install shorter front sight or taller rear sight.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Dave C

[Heavy Barrel]

I was at the range today after installing a set of night sights on my M&P 40. To see if I need to change the position of the sights.

After shooting 100 rounds of Winchester 180gr WinClean, trying all three sizes of back straps, both strong and weak hand. The gun consistently grouped about the size of a soft ball, but low (approx 3-4") and to the right (3-4") at seven yards.

I figured with the sight tool that I used to install the sights with. I could correct the (3-4") to the right.

But the (3-4") low what could/should I to do in order to correct that?.

If your using a 6 o'clock hold, try covering what you want to hit with the front sight. Or, install shorter front sight or taller rear sight.

Would you have any suggestions for shorter front night sight or taller rear night sight?

I know Trijicon dosen't market anything to fit the M&P's other than what I installed.

This finding makes me a little concerned about my M&P 40c.

[Flexmoney]

Are you left handed?

[JThompson]

Are you left handed?

He said he was shooting both strong and weak... chances of him pushing them low right with both hands is low.

Edited November 29, 2009 by JThompson

[G-ManBart]

What distance were you shooting at that had them 3-4" low?

The load that you choose for practice/carry may not hit the same place as the WinClean ammo did. So, you may not really need a new front sight. You can get a Warren/Sevigny front sight with a tritium insert in both .215 and .245 heights. Do you know how tall your Trijicon front is? You could also go with a complete set of Warren Tactical sights with tritium inserts or Sevigny Carry Sights with tritium inserts.

CPWSA carries them:

http://www.cpwsa.com/warren_sevigny_sights.htm

[Flexmoney]

Are you left handed?

He said he was shooting both strong and weak... chances of him pushing them high right with both hands is low.

I read that, and didn't miss it. I'm still curious as to the answer.

[amaziah]

You just changed the sights? Did you get the right front sight for the rear site? I would check with the company you bought from that they sent the proper combination of sights and that the right sights were ordered. Did you shoot some groups before changing the sights? How were those groups?

Personally I wouldn't start grinding with just 100 rounds of one ammo through the gun. First I would try some other brands of ammo. Bullet weight can make a big difference in vertical p.o.i. as well as hotter rounds. The faster the bullet flies the flatter it shoots. Try also shooting some groups at 25 yards for comparison.

[Jake Di Vita]

I know you extensively tested it. Have another shooter or two shoot it out before you break out the file.

[Heavy Barrel]

See if I can answer all this in a half shell........

Are you left handed?

Yes I'm left handed. Though to add some twist, I'm right eye dominant.

That's why I was trying both left and right hand. To see if it would change any.

What distance were you shooting at that had them 3-4" low?

The load that you choose for practice/carry may not hit the same place as the WinClean ammo did. So, you may not really need a new front sight. You can get a Warren/Sevigny front sight with a tritium insert in both .215 and .245 heights. Do you know how tall your Trijicon front is? You could also go with a complete set of Warren Tactical sights with tritium inserts or Sevigny Carry Sights with tritium inserts.

CPWSA carries them:

http://www.cpwsa.com/warren_sevigny_sights.htm

I was shooting at a 7 yard snail trap. So figured in yardage would be 21 yards. And it was in the mid 60's here when I was shooting.

I have not a clue how tall the front sight is, it was purchase as a set. And per the information Trijicon has online that's the only combination that they market for the M&P's. I have sent an inquiry to Trijicon though it probably won't be until Mon or Tues before I get a response.

I looked at what CPWSA has in the Warren/Sevigny sights for the M&P and by what they show online. Unless I'm missing something, they don't list the option of various heights for the M&P's.

You just changed the sights? Did you get the right front sight for the rear site? I would check with the company you bought from that they sent the proper combination of sights and that the right sights were ordered. Did you shoot some groups before changing the sights? How were those groups?

Personally I wouldn't start grinding with just 100 rounds of one ammo through the gun. First I would try some other brands of ammo. Bullet weight can make a big difference in vertical p.o.i. as well as hotter rounds. The faster the bullet flies the flatter it shoots. Try also shooting some groups at 25 yards for comparison.

I changed the sights right after I got the pistol, but do to some uncontrollable events it wasn't until yesterday I got a chance to get to the range to see how it would shoot.

The sights were sold as one. Per say you order and they come in a blister pack......

I have an inquiry to the manufacture but being the weekend it will have to wait until tomorrow or the day after for a response.

[G-ManBart]

I was shooting at a 7 yard snail trap. So figured in yardage would be 21 yards. And it was in the mid 60's here when I was shooting.

I have not a clue how tall the front sight is, it was purchase as a set. And per the information Trijicon has online that's the only combination that they market for the M&P's. I have sent an inquiry to Trijicon though it probably won't be until Mon or Tues before I get a response.

I looked at what CPWSA has in the Warren/Sevigny sights for the M&P and by what they show online. Unless I'm missing something, they don't list the option of various heights for the M&P's.

I'd still see what happens with the ammo you plan on using for carry/competition purposes before getting too worried about changing anything. When you talk to the Trijicon folks I'd ask them how tall the sights are (both front and rear). If it's the same height as the factory night sights, the front is .160" tall.

Dawson precision makes a rear night sight that they say requires a .180" tall front sight. If you combined that with the .160" tall current front sight it should raise the point of impact several inches.

I think you're right about the W/S sights and I was probably looking at the models they make for Glocks. R,

[Heavy Barrel]

I was shooting at a 7 yard snail trap. So figured in yardage would be 21 yards. And it was in the mid 60's here when I was shooting.

I have not a clue how tall the front sight is, it was purchase as a set. And per the information Trijicon has online that's the only combination that they market for the M&P's. I have sent an inquiry to Trijicon though it probably won't be until Mon or Tues before I get a response.

I looked at what CPWSA has in the Warren/Sevigny sights for the M&P and by what they show online. Unless I'm missing something, they don't list the option of various heights for the M&P's.

I'd still see what happens with the ammo you plan on using for carry/competition purposes before getting too worried about changing anything. When you talk to the Trijicon folks I'd ask them how tall the sights are (both front and rear). If it's the same height as the factory night sights, the front is .160" tall.

Dawson precision makes a rear night sight that they say requires a .180" tall front sight. If you combined that with the .160" tall current front sight it should raise the point of impact several inches.

I think you're right about the W/S sights and I was probably looking at the models they make for Glocks. R,

I'm hoping "someone" would eventually replenish their stock of either Hornady TAP in 155gr or Federal Hydra-Shok 155gr.

I would build a load using either Nosler or Sierra 150gr JHP's, or Hornady 155gr XTP. To use at the range but same way they are on the brink of becoming extinct.

I had these WinClean 180gr on hand back when I got my Glock 22C and used them for plinking, but never seen how they did on paper until yesterday.

If I can't find different heights of sights a lighter bullet will be my only option.

Edit: P.S. If I knew about Dawson, I probably wouldn't be in this boat. I have never see so many options just in sights. They have my business now!!!!!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Heavy Barrel

[Flexmoney]

It's not likely your sights, gun or ammo.

Four inches off at 7y would require a full tenth of an inch of adjustment...quite a bit.

You should be getting way better than softball sized groups at 7y. (More like ping-pong ball sized...if not one hole groups.)

I think you have an issue with flinch/trigger control/milking the grip. You will need to address that.

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with Flex. At 7 yards, the groups should be quite small, unless the barrel is completely wore out, but you said it was a new M&P, so, that's out. But with both hands? I don't know....

[Heavy Barrel]

After taking Flex's suggestion and searching around in regards to his suggestions.

I do recall that I was having issues keeping a grip on the gun, it would want to jump out of my hand when I was shooting left handed.

Which if I interpenetrated correctly, more than likely I was milking.

Though if this is the issue, why would the POI be the same even when I would shoot right handed?

No intentions of being argumentative but wouldn't that change the POI to low and to the left?

I'll admit I'm wet behind the ears

[G-ManBart]

I'm hoping "someone" would eventually replenish their stock of either Hornady TAP in 155gr or Federal Hydra-Shok 155gr.

I would build a load using either Nosler or Sierra 150gr JHP's, or Hornady 155gr XTP. To use at the range but same way they are on the brink of becoming extinct.

I had these WinClean 180gr on hand back when I got my Glock 22C and used them for plinking, but never seen how they did on paper until yesterday.

If I can't find different heights of sights a lighter bullet will be my only option.

Edit: P.S. If I knew about Dawson, I probably wouldn't be in this boat. I have never see so many options just in sights. They have my business now!!!!!

Yeah, Dawson does a nice job with offering lots of choices...I'm pretty much sold on them for everything but duty guns where I don't have a choice.

You'll likely find that lighter bullets will hit even lower than most 180s...not sure about the WinClean as I've shot some, but don't recall the POI (yes, it's counter-intuitive)...sorta weird, but true.

The TAP ammo is a good choice, but in .40 I'd skip the Hydra-Shok as they're quite old technology now. If you're interested in that sort of stuff, this article is really helpful in picking carry ammo:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Edit to add: it looks like Ammunitiontogo.com has the TAP in stock. R,

Edited November 30, 2009 by G-ManBart