Gonzo Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Greetings, After many thousands of rounds through my .45 government 1911s I have come to a startling conclusion. The angle of the grip frame is wrong for me. I found that when I point the gun it always results in the front sight being higher than the rear. So much so that I consistently shoot groups 3 inches higher than if I were to purposefully match the top of the front and rear sight. What should I do? Yes, I could keep shooting high, or I could force my wrist at an un-natural angle to align the tops of the sights, but should I be forced to? Or, could the front sight heigth be changed so that my natural wrist angle would allow for the front sight to match the rear sight? 14/88 Gonzo (Edited by Gonzo at 2:12 pm on July 14, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Are you using an arched or flat mainspring housing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Another possiblity is that you're tense in the shoulders and arms as you're holding the gun. The minute I revert into my official, Mas Ayoob approved,(I would pay any sum to ditch this habit forever), stress-o-rama, Isoceles stance, my front sight drops from view. Relaxing my shoulders and bending my elbows slightly pops it right back into the notch. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo Posted July 15, 2002 Author Share Posted July 15, 2002 Greetings, I have always used a flat mainspring housing, and I certainly use a "tense" hold... But, my groups are OK, so what is really going on here? 14/88 Gonzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Gonzo, Many years ago, they came out with the arched-MSH just for the reason that you described...people's natural point of aim was nose-high with the flat-MSH. Any easy way to test this is to present your gun to a target, with your eyes closed. Open your eyes and see where you are pointed. With that being said...I'm gonna get on the soap-box a little . In my opinion (FWIW), there is one, and only one acceptable sight picture. And that is with the top on the front sight aligned with the top of the back sight (and equal amounts of light on either side of the front sight as it sits in the notch). If you properly align the sights, and keep them alinged, and on target, as the bullet leaves the barrel...you can't miss. Tension, grip and stance matter little. They will, of course, help or hinder your ability to do the above...but, they are all secondary to a proper sight picture and trigger press. (Edited by Flexmoney at 11:58 am on July 15, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Flex, I hate to disagree, but as far as hitting the NPA, my posture and tension level in my body has *everything* to do with where my front sight goes and where my first and subsequent shots land. I'm totally hip to the proper sight picture + proper trigger squeeze = bullseye! formula. If that happens perfectly, somebody oughta be able hang upside down from monkey bars and make 50 yard head shots. But, for "automatic" sight alignment, I HAD to relax my shoulders and arms to get it to work. I think if Gonzo backs off a bit, a natural sight picture might emerge for him. Gonzo, Flex is correct about there being only one correct sight picture. It's gotta be that way all the time. A correct sight picture has to become as natural and automatic as breathing or blinking. Don't deviate. It will only slow you down. My $.02, E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradC Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Gonzo, I just got my new blaster and it has slightly different sites than my old one. Bomar instead of Novak. The grip is also contoured better and has been 'high gripped'. As a result, my natural point of aim with it is a bit off, the front site comes up above my rear, a problem I do not have with my 9mm SV. The way I fixed this was to shift my left (weak) hand more toward the front of the gun to bring the nose down (basically moving my thumb closer to the muzzle). I have a pretty relaxed grip with my 9mm and it works, it looks like I'm going to have to use my weak hand a bit more with the .40 cal, something I expected. All things considered, I'd say its a good thing that you are noticing what is happening. Being aware is the first step. I'm still searching for the second =) BradC A46143 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 E, No worries. I don't think that we are in disagreement...just that we are talking about two different things. (Actually we are both covering the bases pretty good, I think.) This thread could easily go the seeing what you need to see route. Or, it could the shooting the sights vs. shooting from NPA route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Flex accurately described the critical aspect of "seeing" as a necessary ingredient of hitting any target. I think the missing concept here is the cultivativation required to accurately point the gun, without relying on the sights to tell you so. Depending on Temperament Type, some can do this easily, but for others it may take quite a bit of directed effort. (I know Arnt Myhre could hit the first target on 5-to-Go (a ten-inch plate at 10 yards) with his eyes closed, in 1.0 secs., every time.) While SEEING is absolutely the single most important concept to fully comprehend and practice, cultivating a body feel for where the gun is accurately pointed (at close ranges) will assist this process in those rare moments when we're not seeing everything we could be. I've always shot a flat mainspring housing on any 1911 style gun. On the rare occasions when I did try an arched housing, (for whatever reason I felt compelled to), I habitually shot high over targets I took for granted. Nevertheless, if I spent as much time to cultivate the body feel using an arched housing as I did a flat one, I'm sure an arched housing "would have pointed naturally." Gonzo, spend as much time as possible just picking up or drawing your pistol using your normal grip/position with your eyes closed, and then before opening them, pause for just a second to "feel" your entire your upper body, especially from the shoulders forward, and then open your eyes and notice how the front and rear sights are aligned ONLY. (Don't worry about being aimed at anything in particular.) Repeat this process a few million times, each time willing yourself to align the sights perfectly, based on what you saw when you opened your eyes on the previous attempt. If you stick with this practice, you can "become used to" almost any pistol. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo Posted July 15, 2002 Author Share Posted July 15, 2002 Greetings again, Thanks for all the advice. I will try your recommendations and see if I can improve. I wonder if an arched housing would not have an opposite effect. Wouldn't the "hump" area of the housing push against my palm and pivot the front of the gun upward? I guess I just need to try this to see what happens. 14/88 Gonzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 No problem Flex. I'm still in "born again" mode after figuring out how to get my FS to appear where I wanted instead of hunting for it. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 Gonzo, My mistake. I thought the gun was naturally pointing low for you and you were compensating with the sights somehow. Forget my babbling. Go with what Brian said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Gonz, I got'za question bud,.... ".45 government 1911's" you said. The "s" part (plural) is mak'n meesa wonder...how many different 1911 guns do you regularly shoot. You said many thousands of rds, but are they ALL exiting the barrel of the same 1911? Gosh, even a large magwell'd gun could throw your alignment off........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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