Steve Koski Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 So what makes you think Glock put steel guide rods in G17's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 It comes out of another thread and a conversation with ryucasta. The relevant portions of the back-and-forth were copied into the first post in this thread. I just finished paging through my copy of the Kasler book and I didn't find the photo he mentioned. Perhaps he was misremembering? I must admit his assertion that Glock 17s were introduced with steel guide rods is the first time I had ever heard that. If this is not, in fact, true I'll withdraw my comments on how they should legal in IDPA. Though I surely do wish they were. The fact that you can't put a steel guide rod in a Glock is one of the very few IDPA rules I have never liked. How does forcing shooters to keep a more breakage prone part in their gun when they could be upgrading it to steel a good thing? I would think it would come under the category of "changes to improve reliability" myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I have broken a good handfull of Glock parts over the years. The plastic guide rod has never been one of them. What is your other motivation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 The fact that you can't put a steel guide rod in a Glock is one of the very few IDPA rules I have never liked. How does forcing shooters to keep a more breakage prone part in their gun when they could be upgrading it to steel a good thing? I would think it would come under the category of "changes to improve reliability" myself. Have you managed to break a Glock polymer guiderod? I haven't --- yet...... I'm not sure that the steel rods are any more reliable --- and I've run stock, Wolff steel, and tungsten guiderods over the years. Upshot: I don't think it matters much, if at all, what type of guiderod's in my gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Admittedly I haven't. But I do know that some people have. I believe what they're telling me. I'm not saying it's a huge problem, but it's a little, niggling thing, a possible source of failure that - to a very minor extent - bothers me. Being told I can't shore up that potential area of failure, at least if I want to shoot my carry gun in IDPA in the exact same condition I carry it, and I do - bothers me a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 What is your other motivation? I don't understand the question. What other motivation? I don't have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 On second thought it would be nice to have a captured system, it would make disassembly and reassembly a bit easier. I could do that with a steel guide rod with a screw on the end. I guess that could be another motivation. Though I have to say that getting a non-captured unit back into the gun isn't as hard as a lot of people make it out to be, once you know the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 A captured guiderod with a option to change out the spring...in my experience...is more likely to have an issue than a stock recoil spring assembly. I have had the screws back out during recoil (lost one once) and I find myself checking them often. (yes, fully aware of proper application of loc-tite). Some springs bind on some rods...causing short stroke/slide travel. I don't think there is justification from the "severe battering" nor "a point of possible failure". Like I said before, a Glock is along the lines of McDonald's "billions and billions served". If there were issues, they'd be apparent. I don't think any guide rod for the task has as much empirical proof of concept as the stock Glock assembly. It just works. As for the "what you carry" aspect for the IDPA match... Well, we know that dog don't hunt, right? It is an interesting footnote, and it may meet the letter of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 As for the "what you carry" aspect for the IDPA match... Well, we know that dog don't hunt, right? Why not? I do shoot what I carry. Same gun, same holster, same mag pouch, same clothes. Same everything but ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 BTW, it has not escaped my notice that the steel guide rods might not be totally without problems. For instance it has occurred to me that the flange on a steel guide rod, slamming back into the slide lock with every shot, might begin to peen either or both parts under heavy use. Maybe there's a reason Glock makes the guide rod out of polymer. Maybe. But if a steel guide rod should, under the letter and logic of the rules, be a legal part, I'd certainly like the opportunity to make that decision for myself, instead of having the rules say in essence, "You can install to any gun in SSP any part that's ever been installed by the factory in any gun of that basic pattern that they make.....well, except for a steel guide rod in a Glock, of course." BTW, on the rare occasions I have indeed run a steel guide rod in a Glock - never at a match, of course - I have applied blue Loctite to the screw while installing it and I've never had one begin to unscrew itself. Actually the problem I've had is getting the screw out if I want to replace the recoil spring, or at least check its length to see if it needs to be replaced. The Loctited screw doesn't want to come out just with a screwdriver, the entire assembly just turns in my hands. I have to actually clamp the base of the rod into a vice to immobilize it and stop it from turning before I can get the thing apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 As for the "what you carry" aspect for the IDPA match... Well, we know that dog don't hunt, right? Why not? I do shoot what I carry. Same gun, same holster, same mag pouch, same clothes. Same everything but ammo. I'll bet you don't carry with your mags downloaded to 10 rounds. What about all those that carry Appendix IWB ? It's SSP...it has rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Sure. I'm not saying that every rule matches up with what I do in real life. Or what everyone does in real life. They don't, I'm okay with that. At least the vast majority of the rules have an internal logic, they exist for a reason, and are evenly applied across the board. But what do holster rules, which exist to stop shooters from wearing equipment not appropriate for concealed carry, and downloaded magazines, which exist to factor magazine capacity out of the equation thus make lower capacity guns more competitive, have to do with the logic of following the "factory supplied or similar part" rule in every case except in the case of Glock guide rods? That's like saying, "You can wear any concealment appropriate holster in IDPA....except the XYZ holster. Even though it meets all the other rules, well, ya know, no one else uses it. And, y'know, the company only put this particular screw in them for a brief time 20 years ago." Makes perfect sense. Right? I will run my carry gun/holster/etc. at matches. If they let me I'd load my magazines all the way up. They don't, okay fine. But why the "no material other than factory standard" rule in SSP, then not follow that for Glocks if they have, and will, have steel guide rods? Why not just adopt the "material no heavier than common steel" rule used in ESP and CDP? Does anyone actually think the extra weight of a .3" wide steel guide rod is really going to give any sort of competitive advantage versus a polymer part? It just makes no sense. That's what bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaels Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 about 30 rounds into the first class i ever took with a firearm, the stock guide rod shot down range after breaking in my almost new G35, maybe had 1500 rounds on it. Since then, I've broken 3, still have them around here. Broke my first steel one last week in a G27, it was an after market replacement for the factory STEEL one in the gun. They do break, if you haven't broken one, you're not shooting enough. The Glock Armorers Course wants you to change them out something like every 3k rounds, probably the most swapped out for a new one part at GSSF matches. michaels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) But why the "no material other than factory standard" rule in SSP, then not follow that for Glocks if they have (they apparently have not), and will (You want rule changes based on an insider tip of future gun designs? Seriously?), have steel guide rods? Why not just adopt the "material no heavier than common steel" rule used in ESP and CDP? Does anyone actually think the extra weight of a .3" wide steel guide rod is really going to give any sort of competitive advantage versus a polymer part? It just makes no sense. That's what bothers me. You know the answer why. To avoid an equpiment race and keep SSP closer to stock. Yes, LOTS AND LOTS of people think that heavy guide rods give a competitve advantage. How do I know? I was once one of them, and I have talked to dozens and dozens of people who believe it. I doubt they offer a measureable advantage, but MANY people do, and hence it becomes an equipment race. If steel is ok, then why not tungsten, it's only a leeeeetle bit heavier right? Edited November 21, 2009 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 about 30 rounds into the first class i ever took with a firearm, the stock guide rod shot down range after breaking in my almost new G35, maybe had 1500 rounds on it. Since then, I've broken 3, still have them around here. Broke my first steel one last week in a G27, it was an after market replacement for the factory STEEL one in the gun. They do break, if you haven't broken one, you're not shooting enough.The Glock Armorers Course wants you to change them out something like every 3k rounds, probably the most swapped out for a new one part at GSSF matches. michaels You know why they break right? Improper installation. You have to seat the back end in the semi-circle notch in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 But why the "no material other than factory standard" rule in SSP, then not follow that for Glocks if they have (they apparently have not) Until and unless the guy whose info started all this comes through, I would have to say you're right on that one. That's what I get for thinking the first guy who disagreed with me knew what he was talking about. and will (You want rule changes based on an insider tip of future gun designs? Seriously?) I never said that. Please don't try to put words into my mouth. I said that when the Glock 22 RTF comes out with a steel guide rod, then it will be awfully hard to justify not allowing steel guide rods in Glocks period. When someone implied the 22 RTF might not have a steel guide rod, I said it's a done deal. But I didn't say, "Hey, let's change the rule right now, before the guns even show up, because of what I've been told." You know the answer why. To avoid an equpiment race and keep SSP closer to stock. If we follow that logic we shouldn't allow any changes to guns in SSP at all, and the rule allowing people to install any factory part that's every been on any gun in a line to any other gun in a line should be abolished. But if we're gonig to follow this rule, we need to follow this rule. Yes, LOTS AND LOTS of people think that heavy guide rods give a competitve advantage. How do I know? I was once one of them, and I have talked to dozens and dozens of people who believe it. Well, that's impressive. I haven't talked to dozens and dozens of people who believe a fraction of an ounce in a narrow steel guide rod gives a competitive advantage, and I do this for a living. I doubt they offer a measureable advantage That's because they don't. but MANY people do, and hence it becomes an equipment race. If steel is ok, then why not tungsten, it's only a leeeeetle bit heavier right? Wrong. You shortstop that with the "no material heavier than common steel" rule, as has been done in ESP and CDP for the past 13 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Yes, LOTS AND LOTS of people think that heavy guide rods give a competitve advantage. How do I know? I was once one of them, and I have talked to dozens and dozens of people who believe it. Well, that's impressive. I haven't talked to dozens and dozens of people who believe a fraction of an ounce in a narrow steel guide rod gives a competitive advantage, and I do this for a living. Duane, Believe it or not, when I was a steel guide rod junky I discussed the subject with a lot of different people over several years. Most thought it offered a competitive advantage. Regrettably, I wasn't doing it professionally or it might have counted. Koski Edited November 21, 2009 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 when I was a steel guide rod junky Well, it's good that you took the pledge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaels Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 about 30 rounds into the first class i ever took with a firearm, the stock guide rod shot down range after breaking in my almost new G35, maybe had 1500 rounds on it. Since then, I've broken 3, still have them around here. Broke my first steel one last week in a G27, it was an after market replacement for the factory STEEL one in the gun. They do break, if you haven't broken one, you're not shooting enough.The Glock Armorers Course wants you to change them out something like every 3k rounds, probably the most swapped out for a new one part at GSSF matches. michaels You know why they break right? Improper installation. You have to seat the back end in the semi-circle notch in the barrel. I think they break because they're plastic... michaels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 when I was a steel guide rod junky Well, it's good that you took the pledge! I've been aftermarket guide rod free for several years now. I feel so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonInWA Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'd suggest that for most practical purposes concerns regarding the Glock OEM polymer guide rod have already been addressed by Glock in that most (if not all) current production non-telescoping recoil spring rods are produced using a stiffer, more heat- and chip-resistant polymer compound. They are distinguished by having a "1" imprinted on the back face of the rod's rear flange (beneath the part number). That would seem to both address the concerns discussed and be in full compliance with IDPA rules for SSP. I believe that the recoil assembly costs all of $3.00. Best, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 It also occurs to me that if I really want a steel guide rod in my G17, instead of whining about how the rules should be changed in SSP, I could just bite the bullet and compete in ESP instead. This might motivate me to get off my butt about finally getting my Master card in ESP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It also occurs to me that if I really want a steel guide rod in my G17, instead of whining about how the rules should be changed in SSP, I could just bite the bullet and compete in ESP instead. This might motivate me to get off my butt about finally getting my Master card in ESP. There you go. I once made that decision --- well, that and I wanted a magwell. I have no idea under current rules if you can still do that, but back in 2002 or 2003 that passed muster at the Winter Nationals.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 As long as it fits in the box, yes, you can do that. Though since this is also my carry gun I believe I'll continue to go au naturel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnikoley Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 In the early 90's I owned two different Glock 19 pistols. Both came with steel non-captured guide rods. Steel or plastic, what does it matter so long as the gun makes weight anyway? Just my two cents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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