Frustrations......

[mas]

I'm starting to "get it." I'll continue working on it and report back when I think I've got it taken care of....I'm realizing that my hands are a little big for my size, which is causing me some difficulty getting behind the gun with ease. I really have to wedge it back there, but the result is promising. Thanks again for all the help, and big thanks to Smoney for coming up to shoot and for giving me some tips.

[Bigbadaboom]

Question: Does your weakhand move "up" on the gun as you shoot? Heres why I ask. You said that you have this problem with your 1911 primarily so the issue may be easily fixed by checkering or grip-taping the radius of your trigger gaurd. O.K. Here's the issue I'm addressing, Your Glock has a squared trigger gaurd Which causes your index finger of your weak hand to stop against the bottom of it. The trigger gaurd on the 1911 is radiused which will allow your index finger to slide or roll over it. I realized this issue when I radiused the trigger gaurd on my STI to get a higher grip. It worked great accept I had to grip tape the radius so that my finger wouldn't slide up too high. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say and I really hope this helps.

[mas]

My problem is actually the opposite. The index finger of my support hand actually slips down and away from the trigger guard (not due to palm slipping upwards, either). I spoke to M. Burkett and he informed me that I may simply gripping with too much pressure. He also encouraged me to continue trying to get "behind" the gun as much as possible. I'll be working on both of these things this week....I noticed that the more I focused on getting behind the gun, the less muzzle flip there was!! It's a *start* in the right direction.

[mas]

Hey, good news! Got the grip figured out...or at least I now know that I've made it to the right path....for *me*, the trick was to simply push down a bit with my thumbs, like a golf grip. I can't explain it any further than that, but it REALLY controls muzzle flip. The gun returns so quick to target that I don't have the time to prep. I also now understand what too much tension does. I've got to back off the tension and see if that helps produce a consistent sight path during recoil. Thanks again for all the help!

[Steve Moneypenny]

Great, glad to year your getting it worked out.

mas is an awesome shooter with very strong basics, he'll go far if we can get him into competing

[mas]

haha, thanks man, i appreciate it.

well, i'm still shooting with some problems....if i tighten up on everything, then there's minimal muzzle flip, but it's fatiguing and trigger control is obviously harder. I've re-read this thread and will be trying again on Wed.

One thing I've been wondering: is it possible to *over-cam* your support wrist?? I ask because during an intensive session of dry-firing, I hurt my wrist a bit. It's tender today, so I'm guessing I've been over-doing it a bit.

[BigDave]

Yes it is possible to over-cam, but for you that may not be a bad thing. Its very subjective. However, it does sound like this is resulting in loads of excess tension (read your other post). Fatigue is not necessarily a good thing. Although you may be developing mico-muscles you have never had cause to use. Thats is only a guess though.

The best trigger control comes from a hand that is free of excess tension (read: don't put any more force into gripping the pistol and moving the trigger than is necessary).

My $.02

[mas]

thanks, Dave....it's funny b/c i can see how the tension negatively affects my performance. I'm pretty darn accurate when shooting groups, but the problems in trigger control arise when shooting at a faster pace for sure. to me, that's the hallmark of technical difficulties.

[BigDave]

Its a bit odd, and Brian has stated it (I believe, if not here, in the Book) that the "faster" you shoot, the more relaxed you must be. Speed and tension are like oil and water, they never mix.

[Sam]

mas, I feel a odd kinship with you. mas is sam spelled backward!

Did this grip problem just surface after cold weather set in?

I'm having a little grip problem that I haven't had since last winter. When it's 20 degrees or so, my hands get dry and cold and my gun hand slips around inside my support hand something fierce. To be exact, the heels of my hands slip on each other and my support hand fingers won't cling to my gun-hand's knuckles. I've tried spit, chapstick and pro-grip, but so far nothing lasts very long. It's very pronounced when I'm shooting the .45. As soon as I can get my hands tacky again, the problem goes away completely. Anybody got a miracle product for this?

[LPatterson]

Help. There have been lots of comments about applying Pro-Grip but nobody has explained how to apply it. Am I doing it right? I put it in the palm of my weak hand and spread it around with the back of my strong hand. The grips on the gun are covered with sand blasting grit so I don't have a problem holding onto the gun just keeping the hands together. Is there an advantage to putting it on the palm of the strong hand? With the gun (1911) in the holster (011) the grip is parallel with the ground and I do a straight down approach onto the gun irregardless of the starting position. If there is a better way please tell me.

[mas]

sam: nope, this problem has been around regardless of weather conditions.

graywolf: it sounds like you've got enough grip avaiable, but perhaps you are struggling with something similar to what I've been struggling with. Pain in the ass, isn't it?!?!

I'm at work right now and I'm dying to get to the range. It's been one of those weeks where work takes a back seat to thinking about shooting.

[SmittyFL]

Graywolf,

I apply it to the palms and fingers of both hands, just squirt a little in one hand and rub them together like you're drying your hands with one of those wall mounted hair dryer things in public bathrooms.

You only have to rub enough to spread it over the entire surface of your hands, I also make sure some gets between my fingers. Then leave it alone and let it dry. Remember it's mainly to keep sweat and moisture away.

Side Note: Don't light a smoke until it's dry, your hand will burst into flames. Then when you try to put it out on your pants, you'll spread it there and your pants are now on fire very close to the area you wouldn't want burned. Didn't happen to me but I was there when it happened to a friend. He was OK which made it very funny.

[Flexmoney]

mas,

Sounds like you are milking the trigger. Try to loosen up the strong hand grip some. You are likely gripping so tight with the strong hand that you can't move the trigger finger independently. Try it right now, without the gun. You will likely see that, with tension in your strong hand, you won't be able to move your trigger finger without some movement in the other fingers (which grip the gun...thus moving it off target while shooting).

Brian, in the book, talks about not trying to control the recoil...just letting it happen. That is worth exploring.

Also, Matt Burkett has some grip and stance advice in his "shooting tips" section of his website. And, the "timing drills" that he has there are a must.

............

The ProGrip, I think the directions read to "pat" the hands together, don't rub. Think golf clap.

............

Bonedaddy....your screwed...might as well hang it up.

[mas]

flex: for me, my problem with trigger control is actually more a problem with my platform overall. I'm too tight all over! when shooting slow, I hit sub-1 inch groups out to 10 yards.....when I shoot faster, my whole body gets seized up and I'm pushing the gun all around.

[Jake Di Vita]

But the REAL question is WHY are you doing that?

[Steve Moneypenny]

in my amature opinion i would say it's an anticipation of that 45ACP It's a hand full, but more importantly is the noise in that indoor range. it takes a lot of training to not anticipate the noise... or it did for me.

[Sam]

Graywolf, I like to put the Pro-Grip on the front of my strong hand fingers and where the heels of my hands mash tightly together in the shooting grip.

Thanks Smitty, for the tip on offering the nervous, freshly Pro-Gripped, shooter a smoke. The boys are gonna love this one!

BTW, if there is any gap between the heels of your hands (bases of the thumbs) the grip is "open" and the gun will buck instead of tracking smoothly.

Flex, I strongly suspected that I was screwed. And thanks for not pointing out what an idiot I am for practicing in sub-freezing weather.

(Attention Federal LEO's: You missed Flexmoney yesterday in the great motorcycle gang roundup, kindly raid his house tomorrow at 4:00 am.)

[LPatterson]

Sam,

I don't know where you live but if I want to shoot it has to be outdoors because there is not an indoor range closer than 200 miles or an IPSC style club. Montana sometimes has some disadvantages, like yesterday it was 45 with only a 30 MPH wind, today it's 2" of snow. After reading your post I dug out the gun to check the grip and that seems to be like you described but the tip of trigger finger is pointed forward at about a 45 degree angle. With the finger touching the trigger it is half way between the center of the tip and the first joint, if I try to move it to the middle then I seem to have barrel movement when the hammer falls.

[mas]

went out yesterday and had some success.....what i discovered for *my* shooting is the weirdest thing.....basically, if I push my thumbs with some downward tension, the gun stabilizes! I can relax a whole lot more and it worked with a G19 and G36 (although with the G36, my fingers accidentally hit the mag release...haha....no problem though, it wasn't my gun so at least I know to never buy that one). Now I just have to work on consistent tracking.....hmm....