2009 NRA Action Pistol Committee Meeting

[kimmbeckwith]

oh well

Edited November 23, 2009 by kimmbeckwith

[Action Pistolero]

My thoughts exactly. Not worth getting the blood pressure up.

[oldtrooper]

Too many shooters from other disciplines are intimidated by the accuracy requirements at the Cup. I shoot USPSA and IDPA and it is fun but I like the challenge of doing well at the Cup, when I can keep it together for three days in a row. I like the run and gun of USPSA and shot the Mississippi Classic at The Magnolia Rifle and Pistol Club near Jackson every year until they moved the date from October to the Sat-Sunday in May before we leave that same week-end for Columbia. The decision was not difficult and I still would like to shoot the classic but-----.

We are actively encouraging juniors at our local matches but the timing for the Cup limits the number whose parents would allow them to miss final exams and graduations to attend. If we can keep them interested they will want to attend the cup when they are able. The production category shows the best potential to increase our numbers as it may generate interest in those that shoot there in that category the first time to give them the Bianchi Bug.

[9146gt]

Do revolvers have to have a working single action notch in Production?

Tom

[Alan550]

No, they do not need to have the single action functional. That question was put to the head referee before this past years event and he ruled as I said.

Alan~^~

[Griz]

So the metallic/production barricade rule is still "the gun may not touch the barricade" and has not been changed to "the competitor may not grasp the barricade"?

[Allgoodhits]

So the metallic/production barricade rule is still "the gun may not touch the barricade" and has not been changed to "the competitor may not grasp the barricade"?

Griz,

That is a good question, and perhaps best answered by someone who shot Metallic or Production at the Cup. My recall, subject to correction is the Rule Book makes reference to the gun not touching the barricade, but no reference to grasping the barricade for the Met/Prod guns. Further my recall was that at the competitor's meeting a "rule interpretation" was read which stated something about the shooting not being permitted to grasp the barricade. Hopefully one of the veteran post and notch shooters will chime in for the most accurate recall of the events etc.

MPolans,

Your claims that NRA AP is dead at the local level, let me say this. At Chambersburg, PA & Cumberland, MD & Bluefield, VA there were a lot "dead" NATIONAL RECORDS established or broken and a number of "zombies" who also "earned" their NRA DISTINGUISHED AWARDS and I might add that none of the above were awarded posthoumously.

NRA may be dead to you, but it is alive and well to the rest of us. Feel free to contact me off line if you prefer. I recall you shooting a couple local matches, a couple years back, then you came to the Cup. It seemed you had a good time, don't recall hearing any bad experiences pertaining to you? What gives?

MJ

Edited November 24, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[Griz]

Further my recall was that at the competitor's meeting a "rule interpretation" was read which stated something about the shooting not being permitted to grasp the barricade.

I have a big problem with unwritten rules. They need to either put it in the rule book or not. Unwritten rules that you find out about right before the big match are extremely unprofessional and only serve to dampen enthusiasim. Why play a game with rules that can change on one person's whim when there are plenty of other games with clear rules?

This barricade issue was brought up with Tom for the rules committee to consider. I assume that they considered it and we can take the latest revision of the rule book to be the authority on the issue, no creative "interpretation" required. I'm bringing my pitchfork and torch to Columbia though just in case.

Alan550 also brought up a list of inconsistant rules. I certainly hope those were addressed as well....

On a different note, the poster who claims that NRA AP is dead at the local level, let me say this. At Chambersburg, PA & Cumberland, MD & Bluefield, VA there were a lot "dead" NATIONAL RECORDS established or broken

I set 2 records in Bluefield this year.

[Action Pistolero]

Martin,

The blood pressure comment was directed at the same post you mentioned. It's just not worth it.

Griz,

As you and I discussed before, the rule was changed on a whim because someone was observed shooting the barricade in the Nostalgia match in an unsafe manner. I was told that he was very close to shooting off his fingers. The way it was handled was not nearly as bad as the press of someone's finger tips going downrange.

[Griz]

As you and I discussed before, the rule was changed on a whim because someone was observed shooting the barricade in the Nostalgia match in an unsafe manner. I was told that he was very close to shooting off his fingers. The way it was handled was not nearly as bad as the press of someone's finger tips going downrange.

I don't care what the rule is, all I care about is that it is clear and in writing so that we know what the rules are before going to the considerable expense of participating in the Bianchi Cup. If it is a safety issue, then surely the rules committee addressed it and I have no reason to bitch.

One of the fundamental problems with NRA AP is how difficult it is to find information about it. Unwritten rules only exacerbate that problem.

[mpolans]

So the metallic/production barricade rule is still "the gun may not touch the barricade" and has not been changed to "the competitor may not grasp the barricade"?

MPolans,

Your claims that NRA AP is dead at the local level, let me say this. At Chambersburg, PA & Cumberland, MD & Bluefield, VA there were a lot "dead" NATIONAL RECORDS established or broken and a number of "zombies" who also "earned" their NRA DISTINGUISHED AWARDS and I might add that none of the above were awarded posthoumously.

NRA may be dead to you, but it is alive and well to the rest of us. Feel free to contact me off line if you prefer. I recall you shooting a couple local matches, a couple years back, then you came to the Cup. It seemed you had a good time, don't recall hearing any bad experiences pertaining to you? What gives?

MJ

Allgoodhits,

Those are the few exceptions, not the rule. As a whole, nationwide, there's not a lot of AP going on. Heck, just to make it to Chambersburg is about a two hour drive for me (and probably you, IIRC). At the PA state match I last shot, there were what, about 30 shooters? There are more than that showing up for local monthly IDPA and USPSA matches...some local matches have triple that showing up. Furthermore, I'm betting most of the matches you're referring to only shoot the four events of the Cup . . . or, perhaps shoot the four Bianchi Cup events, plus one other . . . true? Thus, it's not really AP that's alive, it's really just the Bianchi Cup. I recall talking to some of the Aussies, and they said even at their local matches (which seem much more plentiful than here), they only shoot the four Cup events.

I didn't have any bad experiences at the matches or the Cup and but for being stuck at work overseas, probably would have attended this year. I do think that some of the rules as written do not encourage growth at the grassroots level, and even deter it. I hope grassroots AP (NOT just the Bianchi Cup) actually does take off and I try to help out when my dad puts on a local match here for a whopping half dozen competitors (which he admittedly doesn't publicize as well as he should). I still remember living in Germany, traveling with my dad from Heidelberg to Rhein Main to start up what was (I think) the first NRA Action Pistol club in Europe and to set up matches there and at the Heidelberg Rod and Gun Club (even then, they were pretty small compared to the IPSC matches). But for folks like my father, Bill Radigan, Bruno Baureis, Bernd Winter, Peter Bitz, Wolfgang Nothnagel, and other members of the Heidelberg Practical Pistol Club, who set up the first European Bianchi Cup back in the late 80's, NRA Action Pistol in Europe might not have happened until later, if at all. (Is it still happening at the local level?)

So, I don't have anything against NRA Action Pistol or the Bianchi Cup. I even like it, or I wouldn't shoot it. But, I'm not going to be a rah-rah cheerleader when I see what I perceive to be deficiencies in current and proposed AP rules and how AP is promoted and I think things could be improved.

For me personally, in a couple months, it probably won't matter, as work will take me overseas for a few years where firearms are prohibited; I probably won't be shooting any Action Pistol unless it's with airsoft . . . then again, who knows, I have shot the Japan Bianchi Cup before with airsoft back in the early 90's.

[Allgoodhits]

Mpolans,

Now that was much more constructive. In my observation, and others, previously your writings were less than constructive. I understand much of what you said above, and agree with some of it.

Actually, I think what the unofficial practice by MDs this year in the east anyway, was to have the matchches with the BC 4 events at the Regionals, and to have at least one other approved AP COF in the State Matches. It is clear that some of the events are more difficult than others. If you have an AP Match which has 3-4 of the easier COF's then one will have a higher score. That is often perceived as a good thing, except, remember this could artificially bump their classification. Then they go to a Regional or Bianchi with their elevated classification card, and they get stomped. I don't think that would be good for getting them to come back again do you? On the other end, I guess you could stack the AP matches with difficult COF, achieve a lower classification (sandbagging?) then go to the regional or BC as a artificially lower class. I don't think that would be right either, do you?

NRA AP is far from perfect and yes there is plenty of room for improvement through constructive criticism, and change as needed and when needed. What I would like to see, may be perceived by others as idiotic and vice versa. I guess the NRA and MD need to get the feedback, opinions and the like and make the best decisions that they can and hope that those made were good ones. As you know doubt know setting up matches, and building programs, it aint easy but you keep doing what "you" think is right, sometimes you succeed, sometimes you have to regroup and come up with a different plan.

We hope to see you at one or more of the matches this year. When I started shooting AP again in 1996-7 the closest match for me was Hinton, WV at 550 miles round trip. The same year I shot Holland Patent, NY at 880 miles round trip. Then they they had matches at Trenton, NJ at 490 miles round trip, then Topton, PA at 400 miles round trip. There were years that Bianchi Cup was the first match of the year for me. Due to efforts, while overcoming numerous obstacles, objections, money and range issues people like Kevin Angstadt, Alan Strawn, Herman Sage, Tom Kwasnieski, Ken Macari, George Martin, Marty & Gary Curfman, Randy Hollowbush, Charlie Copolla, John Dowell and others I can not think of right now there now is a pretty good group of people who shoot NRA AP in the east. Let me add that arguably to two best AP shooters in history Doug & Bruce live a thousand miles or so one way from the Bianchi Cup.

Rest assurred NRA Action Pistol although not as convenient as some of the other popular shooting sports is not dead. NRA AP is not as easy as some of the shooting sports to shoot or to run. If anything due to the efforts of the above mentioned persons and many others including Larry & Brenda Potterfield from MidWay USA whom have ponied up at least $115,000 in cash the past two years and the efforts of Tom Hughes and Michael Krei at NRA Action Pistol is gaining ground. I am confident that the 2010 NRA National Action Pistol Championships, the Bianch Cup will be one of the best ever, and 2011 will even be better than that! We may not be the biggest event in shooting sports, but we will make the best event in shooting sports. Perhaps NRA AP and Bianchi Cup are an acquired taste that is not for everyone, but those who have tried it, seem to love it, thus we must be doing something right.

Cheers and come on out, you and all are welcomed,

MJ

[Alan550]

Also, just to clarify , NRA requires that Regional (Registered) matches in AP run the 4 Cup events. They also require at the State (Registered) level that at least 2 of the Cup events be run, so that puts limits on which events we can run. So in order to have a Regional match, you have to have a mover.

Generally the 2 non-Cup events at the State level are chosen because there are possible records that can be set. That's why some of the more obscure events from the rule book get shot at that level.

For a monthly "Approved" level match, any of the COFs from the book can be shot. No need to have a mover, plate rack or barricades, only some target stands, targets and ammo!

FYI

Alan~^~

[NRAActionPistol]

We will approve any request to hold a Registered or Regional Match. This is the 2010 Request! If you want any documents to run matches, let us know, as long as they are NRA Action Pistol Approved COF I will sign them!

REQUEST TO CONDUCT AN NRA 2010 ACTION PISTOL REGIONAL

If you wish to conduct a 2010 NRA Action Pistol Regional Tournament, complete this form and mail it to the National Rifle Association, Competitive Shooting Division, 11250 Waples Mill Rd. Fairfax, VA 22030. In order to be considered for approval, this request must be received no later than (3) three months prior to the tournament as a lead time for advertisement, if not sooner. If the request is approved, it is understood that the NRA will send the necessary information and instructions for conducting this tournament and that the sponsor will conduct the tournament according to NRA rules. Applications to conduct a Regional will not be considered unless the sponsoring organization is affiliated with NRA.

COURSES OF FIRE: Can be any of the (16) sixteen approved courses, must use two of courses fired at the Championship

MATCH 1 - MATCH 2 - MATCH 3 - MATCH 4 -

MATCH 5 -Regional Championship: An aggregate of the scores fired in matches 1, 2, 3, and 4.

AWARD SCHEDULE: Winner, second, and third place in the Regional Championship are provided by the NRA and consist of gold, silver and bronze Regional Medallions. Winners in each of the 5 classes in Match 5 will receive a $100 certificate towards the 2011 NRA Bianchi Cup fee. A $100 entry credit certificate will also be awarded to the High Woman, High Junior, High Senior, High Open & High Metallic** (at least two entries required for these awards). The Overall & High Production Firearm winner in Match 5 (at least three entries required) will receive a free entry credit to the 2011 NRA Bianchi Cup. All other awards, including Special Awards, are the responsibility of the sponsor.

NOTE: This is a Bid to conduct a Regional only and is not an Official Application to conduct an Action Pistol Regional. Official applications will be sent to you if your organization is selected as a sponsor. Completion and submitting this form does NOT mean that you will be selected automatically to hold a Regional.

PLEASE PRINT OR TYPE ALL INFORMATION:

( ) We wish to conduct a 2010 NRA Action Pistol Regional

( ) We will be unable to conduct a 2010 NRA Action Pistol Regional

Name of Organization: _______________________________________________________________

Club Number: ________________________ Club Expiration Date: _________________________

Our choice of dates (fill in all three):

1st

2nd

3rd

Range Location

City State

Range Facilities:

Number of Firing Points (total):

Number of Falling Plate Racks:

Are target frames turning type: ( ) yes ( ) no Club has a Mover: ( ) yes ( ) no

This organization has previously sponsored the following tournaments:

Number of Regional’s held: Dates:

Number of State Championships held: Dates:

Number of Registered Tournaments: Dates:

Our entry fee will be $ per match

Our package entry fee will be $ for the Regional Championship

Will Special Awards (e.g. Women, Junior, Metallic Firearm, etc.) be used for individual matches ?

yes no

If yes, which:

We understand and agree that it will be our responsibility, if our request is approved, to furnish two (2) draft programs for NRA to review and approve before printing and distribution; to furnish adequate and efficient match operation personnel; and to submit the required fees and reports to NRA within 14 days of completion of the tournament. We will forward our draft program for approval at least 45 days before our Regional is fired.

All requests to conduct a 2010 Regional will be reviewed by NRA and notification will be sent to those organizations whose requests are approved. At that time, complete information will be supplied by NRA.

Contact person: NRA#:

(This person will be listed in SSUSA Coming Events.)

Address of Contact:

City State Zip

Day Time Phone #: E-mail:

Do you want the contact person’s E-mail address listed in the Coming Events section of Shooting Sports USA? Yes No

Do you want the contact person’s telephone number listed in Coming Events section of Shooting Sports USA? Yes No

DATE: SIGNED:

[Alan550]

Ah, they changed it this year! Great!!

Alan~^~

Edited November 25, 2009 by Alan550

[Action Pistolero]

There is a good reason for participation in Australia to be high. It is a requirement that they have to shoot so many major matches a year just to keep their guns. Why they only shoot the 4 events could be that the ranges that I saw in Blacktown are not easily changed around.

After the State and Regional matches in Bluefield I found out why we don't have 100 shooters at an A/P match. The reason is the Mover. The only way to handle more than 65 shooters is to have 2 movers.

It has always been possible to shoot any 4 events at a State match. There is a requirement for the match to be eligible for Distinguished points to have 2 of the Cup events.

[gm iprod]

Kevin,

As you saw when you were here in New Zealand in 2008 we generally only shoot the Bianchi 4 as well. We have a simialr requirement to Australia, but not as onerous. We have 5 clubs within 2hours drive of my house that have rail movers. We can set up other COF but we have limited resources and all our Nationals and other main matches are based on the Bianchi 4. our ranges are fairly small set ups and we do quite well with what we have. Shame you did not have more time here (otehr than fishing) and we could have shot some more at some of the otehr ranges. Ian is still working on the mover system plans. You will have them soon.

Anyway back on subjest

We have a total pool of 3200 pistol shooters in NZ, thats it. so if we get 80 to our Nationals we are doing very well. At the last one 8 or so Australians came over we had a ball.

Driving a few extra miles for a match is not that much of a problem, if you are serious about your shooting you will find a way. Try flying for 18 - 24hours every year.

The Australians usually get 100+ to theirs, not sure of the pistol shooting numbers but I am sure it is 10K + nowadays, although they lost a bunch a few years ago when they banned 80% of the firearms they could own. So if you want to do things the hard way talk to the Aussies. Ithink they have cornered the market on perserverance.

The main reason we shoot AP here in New Zealand is to come to THE CUP, this is a big thing for us. As you know we spend a fair amount of money on our sport and from our view down here we struggle to see where a lot of the changes (in the past) have come from. But things are seriously better than they were, and through the efforts of Tom Hughes, Mike Krei and I am sure others things will improve some more yet. At least we get answers to our emails now, and usually pretty darn quick.

We can't do much to influence the higher ups in the US, but you guys can. Start shooting the match, get on the organizing committees, and see what you can achieve from the inside. The more matches there are or the more people that go to matches makes it hard for them not to listen to you.

If you don't have the time to help at teh top level, just turn up shoot and generally assist at the match. It will make it all go real smooth.

[Action Pistolero]

Richard,

I have noticed from my pictures that your club in Auckland could run the Speedload or Los Alamitos. From the looks of it you all have certainly made maximum use of space. To put all 4 events on the same range sure takes some planning.

I would have loved to stay longer but eventually I do have to work and I'm sure Mary and the girls would like a roof over their heads and food in the fridge. (or should I say chilly?) I'm still trying to get over Sam asking me if I wanted a chocolate biscuit.

For some reason there are quite a few A/P shooters that will not shoot anything but the 4 events. I get bored with the same thing over and over. Normally during a monthly match we would throw in something different but with all the Regionals added to the schedule the past few years that hasn't been happening. I'm by no means complaining but time has not been at a premium for the past few years.

I have been a supporter of changing the events at Bianchi but I'm in the minority on this one. I am of the opinion that shooting the other events makes you a better shooter. I guess it has a lot to do with a shooters comfort zone. With the 4 events they are comfortable but throw in a reload or a fast time limit and they fall apart. When I first started I could hold my own with the guys that have been shooting this for 20 years as long as we were shooting one of the odd events. Experience would beat me out on the Bianchi four.

[gmshtr]

I know I'm coming in late on this, but I have a solution.

ALL Divisions: 1. Prone only allowed at 50 yds. 2. Nothing can touch the barricade. 3. 1911/Single Action pistols must have at least one working external safety.

This would piss off a lot of current (Open) shooters, but it would potentially bring in more new competitors. Sometimes things need to get shaken up a bit.

Of course, this will NEVER happen, but one can dream.

[Action Pistolero]

I know I'm coming in late on this, but I have a solution.

ALL Divisions: 1. Prone only allowed at 50 yds. 2. Nothing can touch the barricade. 3. 1911/Single Action pistols must have at least one working external safety.

This would piss off a lot of current (Open) shooters, but it would potentially bring in more new competitors. Sometimes things need to get shaken up a bit.

Of course, this will NEVER happen, but one can dream.

Hey Phil,

Been there, done that, gave them their own category and it just ticked a bunch off.

Grip safety and trigger pull rules are the biggest things holding us back from getting 1911 shooters. Will that ever change? Maybe when you and I are moving around the range via a walker.

Kevin