Hhf

[shred]

It looks like some here are under the impression that the HHF is automatically adjusted when new scores roll in. I just don't know that to be the case...at all.

Yeah, according to what used to be posted on the USPSA web site (now it's only in the classifier book PDF and considerably vaguer), they have a database of the top 10 scores ever on each classifier and recalculate the HHF whenever that average changes. In reality, like Flex says, it happens a lot less often than that. At least it does happen every so often now. We were stuck for a long time.

My guess is that no part of the process is automatic, and requests to move a HHF down are approved a lot less often than requests to move them up.

[Ron Ankeny]

In fact, I think the HHF's are stagnant more than they are moving.

I think you are correct. I have had this conversation with Val, Roger, etc. at HQ a couple of times. I wasn't complaining to them, I was just trying to figure out where the HHF's came from. The event that really perked my interest was when I earned my initial classification in revolver and it appeared abnormally high.

FWIW, I think the folks at USPSA know quite a bit about database administration and statistics. I have no problem with HHFs that are out of sight as long as the hit factor is calculated using actual scores and the outliers are trimmed. That's exactly what USPSA does when they revise hit factors.

My complaint (valid or not) is when HHFs are set that are not based on actual scores. Yes, I know USPSA had to set some initial hit factors for revolver and production so they based those off of limited. What I want to know is when are they going to revise those hit factors and how large must the database be before they are comfortable with the numbers?

In the case of CM 03-18 I just want to know where the HHF came from and is the hit factor based on real numbers? As a new classifier, there is also the possibility that a clerical error was made along the way that has gone unchecked. CM 03-18 has at it's heart the reload, the draw, and one handed shooting. I suppose there is a possibility that the disparity between the top shooters and us regular folks is a lot bigger than we care to admit (that's the PC way of saying we suck).

[driver8M3]

In the case of CM 03-18 I just want to know where the HHF came from and is the hit factor based on real numbers?

i wonder the same thing about 03-14 (baseball standards). this is a fixed time classifier with strong hand and week hand shooting at 45 feet, and freestyle at 75 feet (120 total points). the HHF in open is all 120 points. the HHF in production is the same, all 120 points. i find it hard to believe they have 10 perfect scores on record in production...in fact, i wonder if there is even one perfect score in production.

[Flexmoney]

There is said to be a requirement for new classifiers to have been shot in a Major match...

[SteveZ]

There is said to be a requirement for new classifiers to have been shot in a Major match...

..but then you run into a catch-22 situation. Most of the classifiers require mandatory reloads...and madatory reloads aren't allowed unless the stage is a classifier....or its a Level I match. So at a major match...these "yet-to-be classifiers" aren't classifiers...and major matches are typcially Level II and above.

[Ron Ankeny]

There is said to be a requirement for new classifiers to have been shot in a Major match...

I can't remember the number, but I actually checked major match scores on one of the new classifiers and sure enough, the HHF came right out of the match. I wish I could remember which one.

[hopalong]

Now you guys leave poor little bang & clang alone.......

If I can get a 94% in L-10 shooting a wheelgun then it really isn't too high! And I'm not very good with one of them things!

But then again, maybe I shot the run of a lifetime........

HOPALONG.

Or was it 96%......hell I can't remember.

Edited April 7, 2006 by hopalong

[Flexmoney]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with Bang-n-Clang. (Looks like an easy Steel Challenge stage in my mind.)

[Ron Ankeny]

The HHF for Bang and Clang is at least based on real numbers for some of the divisions, but the HHF is too low in revolver and in production.

[Flexmoney]

Ron, does that mean that it was acturally set (based off some input) for Production and Revolver, or is it the old standard of 90% of the Limited HHF for Revolver and 95% of the Limited HHF for Production?

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

What I mean is the HHF is based on real numbers for Open and Limited Divisions (and I can accept L10). But the HHF is still a percentage of Limited for Production and Revolver. I suppose I am out of line saying the hit factor is too low for rev. and prod. because I don't have the numbers to back that up. But my sense is there is no reason to give a 5 and 10 per cent cushion respectively to those divisions for a classifier with 4 poppers and one piece of paper. Afterall, this classifier is about the draw, a handful of transitions, and one split. I know USPSA will eventually adjust the hit factors as soon as they are comfortable with the size of the database.

[hopalong]

Ron,

I'll give you my numbers for Bang & Clang on all divisions with the run I had...

2.60 time

30 points

for a hit factor of: 11.5385

So here is what the OHIO classifier says.....

LTD and LTD-10: 94.5779% which is what it says on the USPSA results for me.

OPEN: 79.5758%......YEP.......BIG BIG difference!

Production: 99.5556%........Pretty Darn close to 5%

Revolver: 105.0864% .......Pretty Darn close to 10%

Now this classifier is part of the ones based on 5% and 10% for Production and Revolver respectively, as we can tell......AND YES OPEN is way off the scale if you ask me too!

3 weeks after I had the run with the wheel I had the priveledge of getting to shoot it again with my limted gun. ran it with 1 point down and 2.59 for a 92.???? % (If my memory serves me....I could be wrong....have been in the past)

Now I'm NOT bragging, but I can do that run again....pretty consitantly.....should it be a 100+% in revolver? Maybe, I know I am not the best wheelgunner out there, but I also know that I can post some of the best scores out there too.

So what does this info tell us?

In my opinion, since there are so many more Open and Limited shooters their hitfactor base will be higher, just because of the numbers available.

USPSA, IF they really want to make the classification system reflect the abilities of each division, it needs to use JUST the numbers from that divisions results.....then we can get some true "classifications" in all the divisions......But I wouldn't bet on that happening either.

So although it is flawed, the system works (somewhat )

But look at my signature line about OPINIONS!

Hopalong

[Ron Ankeny]

Hopalong:

I think we are pretty much on the same page. My gripe is how unreasonable the hit factors are on revolver hateful classifiers (multiple reloads) compared to revolver friendly classifiers (no reloads, one shot per target, etc.). In the first case the hit factors are too high, in the second case I suspect they are too low. But, that's just my opinion.