Open Gun Recoil

[Rush]

Hi to all.. just wanted to ask around on open guns and recoil.

My open gun pushes to the left after each shot. I guess it became more noticeable while I was changing/adapting my grip from a firm to a light, neutral grip...

What has happened now is that I shoot with a light, neutral grip freestyle and I've noticed the second shot on doubles is to the left. Is this a compensator problem?

I've experimented a bit to see how its affected by grip and the results were much the same...

Tight/Firm Grip - dot moves more or less vertically with shots relatively straight or a little to the right. I can manage the hits/recoil more consistently in the A box (w/ the occassional C) using this grip. However, speed is definitely affected...

Light, Neutral grip - groupings are more haphazard on doubles with the second shot consistently to the left. More C/D hits and more dot movement to the left.

Strong Hand (right) - dot/gun pushes to the left every time. not so much torque 1/32" barrel. In fact, I notice the push more than the torque and you spend most of the time getting the dot back to the right after each shot.

Was hoping if I could get your opinions on this problem. Just wondering if I should just change the comp out right rather than trying to add another port to steer the gun more to the right. Appreciate all opinions.. Thanks in advance.

REgards,

[eric nielsen]

I would hand the gun to a few other Open shooters and see if they notice the same thing. That would tell you that the cause is in the gun (the comp) and not in your own reaction/timing of the recoil cycle.

If it is the gun pushing left, you can redirect this a great deal by enlarging the ports on your compensator, on one side only. This is covered in Jerry's Burner Series tapes. It works.

I took down the right sides of my comp ports, as does Barnhart and most other right-handed shooters. Sounds like you would want to widen your ports on the left side.

[Flexmoney]

I'd have to think that it is you grip and trigger control.

If you were milking the trigger just a bit...you would likely see the same results...with the different grip pressures that you have applied.

Hard to tell from here though.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm with Flex. My experience is very limited though.

[tightloop]

If your grip isn't neutral, you will unknowingly drive the gun with the pressure from the grip, either firm or light. also you cannot have good trigger control if you are constantly fighting to attain a neutral grip.

It all begins with acquiring the pistol from the holster, and as you begin to make your stroke, be certain you have a neutral grip pressure. You do not need a death grip on any pistol, and that only destroys continuity and shot to shot consistency. Light, neutral grip pressure, trigger control speparate from your grip will help to place all your shots in a smaller group.

[Rush]

Thanks Guys...

I've had two others test the gun already, and they say that it does push left... I'll have some of the others try it out... its certainly an interesting problem for me here...

i'll look at my grip again if it is neutral. but if in slow fire mode, for group/zeroing shots only, I can erase a patch at 25 yds (gun zero).... but each time, the gun is steered to the left... I actually thought it was my trigger stroke and I was pushing the gun to the left....

let me try experimenting again with your added inputs... thanks lots

Rgds,

[Flexmoney]

Shoot it left-handed too....freestyle and just the one hand.

[Rush]

Experimented again over the weekend with the club and some other open shooters.....

Flex was right.. it is my grip and I'm pushing the gun to the left most of the time. I'm gonna go back to group shooting for a bit to get it right as well as bill drills. My bill drills are not consistent with shots splattered all over the A/C area. I'm going to slow it down and see if I can track the dot better such that groupings are smaller before speeding it up. I'm not seeing enough.

Thanks for the all advice again.... its a great thing when you have forums... lots of help available and it really is appreciated

Regards

[Flexmoney]

Rush,

I'm glad you got it fiogured out.

And, as long as you are going to be shooting Bill Drills, you might try out Burkett's timing drills. They address the very thing you will be working on.

God luck. Let us kow how it goes.

[eric nielsen]

In practice, you can see just how much recovery you need to add to what the gun does by itself. It's a different amount for each different shooting position. Try this leaning, crouching, stronghand only, weakhand only.

Just fire a shot and don't recover at all. Don't even react. Just let the dot jump up to where it will. Then, later, put the dot back at your aiming point. Do this several times. You're now just observing what your body has been doing subconsciously.

Speed it up a little, using your conscious thought to put the gun back. After a while choose a new shooting stance.

You'll find that to 'put the gun back' from a leaning barricade position is totally different. It's mostly all sideways. I've seen many, many guys shoot Alpha-Mike on targets from leaning positions. They trust their standing recovery to handle a leaning shot and it failed them in match conditions.

From a deep crouch, you might find that the gun moves very little and allows a really fast recovery. Most likely it's because your body is 'behind the gun' so much.

We had a local guy, we constantly told him that he stood waaay too upright while shooting. When I taped our whole squad at an Area match, it was obvious too him that crouching (low ports) resulted in his split times going much faster.

[Rush]

One of funny things I noticed was that my splits were in the .13 - .15 secs on bill drills. Not great for A hits definitely not seeing enough... even on lev 2 and 1 match stages which were long course/hose n pray style... splits were .13-.15. With close in targets up to 5 meters, I could index well on them and end up with most A hits.. but on ranged targets from 10 meters above... A then C hits were more common. the double was normally a C.

The guys at my club say I need to work on accuracy... and to slow down. I'm one of the fastest shooters in the the club... but definitely not the most accurate

I have to find a balance.. but I love shooting fast!

Thanks all... great advice and great forum!

Rgds,

[Rush]

Also, I have stages that never seem to recall seeing, indexing and shooting the targets. I just shoot. But the hits were pretty good and these are normally my best stages... (nothing like a Matt Burkett or anything)... Do you guys always remember acquiring the targets/sights/firing in all the stages?

Rgds..

[Mad Scientist]

Rush ,

I like to use a quote from Max Michel he always tells me to shoot Two shoots quickly . This means To take Two sight pictures and pull the triger independantly for each shoot. I have seen Max playing around in practice and burn up a bill drill in the 1.45 sec range . That is awsome to see but when you ask him he will say he saw the shot on every round.

Obviously Most guys can not duplicate this performance my self included.but when you look at the ideology it makes sense. shoot as fast as you can get good hits on with regularity . when I fully understood what he was talking about I slowed down a touch and started geting great hits. my hit factor went way up and my match position went up.

As far as the gun firing left for a right handed shooter I would say triger control is a good place to look and make sure you get Two site pictures.

John Nagel

[Rush]

Tried the timing drills.. i'll stick with a medium grip.

While speeding up the shots, notice that if I keep splits at about .2 to .18 secs, I can keep the hits in the A box... anything faster will more likely result in a A/C double. I also noticed my flinch was back so got to work that off again....

Thanks for all the advice...

[J.L. Hardy]

Rush, a couple other things you might want to investigate. both of which i encountered on my own path to improvement. one was trigger length. i happen to have lost the first joint on my trigger finger when i was 15 so i have to use a very short trigger. when i use one any longer i tend to shoot left consistantly. the faster i shoot the more left the point of impact is. the other thing to look for is the grip safety torqueing against your thumb. i get a real high grip on the gun and found that i actually developed a callous (spelling?) where my thumb was contacting the grip safety. sti's grip safety's are relieved on the sides to help with this, but i have found that for it to feel comfortable for me i need to blend it more. without doing this the faster i would shoot the farther left and low i would shoot. just make sure your gun fits your hand. Bob at Brazo's can help with this. if everything fits fine most open guns with efficient comps will track straight up and down if you use a proper grip. good shooting, j.l. hardy

[sfinney]

and I've noticed the second shot on doubles is to the left. Is this a compensator problem?

Its already been addressed, But I'll strongly second the recommendation - right off the first thing that caught my eye in your original post was use of the term "doubles".

Everyone is right on in that you need to have a sight picture for each and every shot, you need to see the dot move across the target as you shoot each shot.

Otherwise, you are indeed "doubling", which is taking just one sight picture and squeezing twice, trusting to luck that the second shot will fall reasonably close to the second. With out the second sight picture, how do you know?

This is a huge problem I've wrestled with over the years with as well, still fight it.

The urge to go fast sometimes overtakes reason and caution, and as you stated, you start hammering light speed splits - you can get away with this on closer targets, but it will kill your points on medium to longer targets.

Brian's book has helped me alot over the last years or so to correct that (and many other problems!), highly recommended reading - at least 2 -3 times. Every time I read it, I pick up some new level of understanding that I jusy missed the first time.

At first it feels slower to take the sight picture for every shot, but its surprising, that shooting 2 seperate shots cleanly rather than 2 rushed , really ends up being faster overall for me, when the timer stops - I can't really explain it other than less make up shots (because I'm calling my shots), or more confidence between targets and arrays in transition, because I know I can move and transition at light speed, buut still know I'm going to get my hits because I'm calling each shot.

In a nutshell, shoot every shot as if its the only shot of match, right then.... each shot takes care of itself, and has equal importance. Kinda of an oversimplification, I know, but a good place to start mentally as you move into this type of mindset.

Now if I can just remind myself of all this in the actual matches!