mhearn Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Please help me understand how to use the reticle on the Elcan SpecterDr. I'm looking for a new scope for 3 gun competition. I had almost settled on the Nightforce 1-4 with a mil-dot. I'm beginning to understand how you can use a mil dot to estimate your hold overs. Then, a friend with 20th Group Special Forces showed me the Elcan SpecterDr for 5.56. Very nice. The reticle has hash marks that indicate the drop at 300 400 500 600 meters among other thing. I've been told that the reticle is set up in meters for .223 M855 green tip out of a M4 with a 14.5" barrel at a muzzle around 3000. 62 grain. The reticle bothers me. I wish it was a simple mil dot but it is what it is. My question is how do I use that reticle for my situation: Ultramax 55 gr NBT Ballistic Coefficient: 0.267 G1 Caliber: 0.223 in Bullet Weight: 55.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 2809.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 15.0 ft Sight Height: unknown. about 2.5 inches Temperature: 80 F Two hundred yard zero. 16" barrel I'm shooting the Ft Benning Match in December. The distance stages involve a variety of flash targets at distances from 150 to 500 yards. Nice Optic but I'm not sure how to get there from here? Do I calculate the drop for the green tips at each of the hashes? Then compare that to the drop for my NBTs across the same distance. If the drop where the same, then the reticle would work fine? *(^%*^(%$#@@$ Mhearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Mark, do you have this scope? and if you do what are the exact model number and descriptor numbers for it. I have been looking for one for quite sometime now, but all the people that have DRs can't seem to tell me which retical is in the ones they have, and I guess they can't open a box to look. Anyway with that out of the way, I think your Ultramax load with 55 NBT are going around 3000 fps. All the ones Benny and I have chronoed are right around there....Now the 69 grain Ultramax goes about 2800, and with the better BC for the 69 gr, it will be okay. Either way both will be darn close to the retical out to 400 give or take 2-3" (which as you know isn't a big deal on steel) Past that you would have to play around a bit. I do know that for My TA-11 with the ultramax 69 grain load I was about 8" low at 400, but it is one of the old ones with the BC retical tuned for a 55 @ 3250 fps. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted June 26, 2009 Author Share Posted June 26, 2009 Anyway with that out of the way, I think your Ultramax load with 55 NBT are going around 3000 fps. All the ones Benny and I have chronoed are right around there....Now the 69 grain Ultramax goes about 2800, and with the better BC for the 69 gr, it will be okay. Either way both will be darn close to the retical out to 400 give or take 2-3" (which as you know isn't a big deal on steel) Past that you would have to play around a bit. I do know that for My TA-11 with the ultramax 69 grain load I was about 8" low at 400, but it is one of the old ones with the BC retical tuned for a 55 @ 3250 fps. KurtM Kurt. The M855 62 grain numbers that this scope is set up for are from the Aberdeen Proving Ground Data. The velocity numbers on the Ultramax 55 NBT are from my chrono with my rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Mark, I've been experimenting somewhat along the same lines as you. Here is what I did. Take all the M855 ballistic data you can find and plug it in to a ballistic program and print out a trajectory table. The goal is that on paper, your table should coincide with your BDC reticle. Next, using the ballistic program start fooling around with bullet BC's and velocities (or zeros with factory ammo) to get the same dropthru as the M855's at 300, 400 and 500. This is what I have so far and have it within .7 inches at 400 and dead perfect at 500. So on paper and in theory my handloads have the same practical trajectory as the M855 ammo at long range. There's not much difference at close range either. Next step which I hope to get to in the next couple of weeks is get to a range that goes out to 500 and confirm my zero and BDC reticle by shooting M855's. The goal is to be dead on at 300, 400 and 500. And then do the same with my handloads. In a perfect world, it will come out perfect. Good luck to the both of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 Mick Thanks. Been working on what you suggest. Here are the results M855 223 62 grain. BC .304 MZ 3025. In meters, 200 meters zero. At 300 meters -8.9" drop. At 400 meters, -27.3 drop. At 500 meters, -58.2 drop. Ultramax 223 55 Grain. NBT. BC .267. Out of my rifle (16" Barrel) MZ 2809. In yards 200 yard zero. The ballistic program predicts at 300 yards -8.9" drop, at 400 yards a -27.6 drop, at 500 yards a -59.4 drop. That is freakishly close. Someone's plan? Good luck Mick. My intentions are to have one on the rifle at Benning. MHearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 actually it isnt that close, a yard isnt a meter, there is a 41 yard difference between 500 yards and 500 meters. At five hundred meters the faster bullet will hit 54.9 cm higher. If you want to go inches and yards at 500 yards the 62 gr 3000 fps bullet will be about 20 inches higher. All of this is probably fantasy land you'll really have to go out and shoot it to see for sure and evedn if you do, do you really know how far the targets are measured or 500 of "Bubba's paces ? or the elevation differences ? Your trying to use exact science to make calculations without taking into acount an enormous amount of variables. Even the trajectories are wrong. They are based on a published BC which is only an aproximate number in itself. Even if it was exact the BC isnt a constant it changes with velocity. I say you can get close but you'll have to shoot it to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted June 27, 2009 Author Share Posted June 27, 2009 (edited) I can vouch for the trajectory on the Ultramax 55 NBT out of my rifle. The drop at those distances is accurate. Don't know about the M855 trajectory. Have to go with the Aberdeen Proving Ground Data. What do they know? I'm not willing to say they don't know what they are doing. I'm also not willing to say that they don't know how to calculate a BC. From the 200 meter tick to 300 meter tick the bullet dropped 8.9" for the M855. In this situation, the M855 is moving faster with a better BC. Not dropping as fast. Going further. So at what distance does the Ultramax 55 drop 8.9". It drops that amount from a 200 yard zero to 300 yards. Convenient? Coincidence? Looks like those ticks will work just fine for me. Your right. The Range will have the final say. MHearn Edited June 27, 2009 by mhearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Can anyone tell me the exact numbers on this Elcan with this retical?? (see above) KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 Anyone know the difference between this version (SpecterDr) and the earlier model (?). I've been told that the handle for switching from 1 to 4 locks in place on the newer. Any other differences? P.S. Kurt. Next time I actually touch one of these, I'll get a model #. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Anyone know the difference between this version (SpecterDr) and the earlier model (?). I've been told that the handle for switching from 1 to 4 locks in place on the newer. Any other differences?P.S. Kurt. Next time I actually touch one of these, I'll get a model #. They also made the control knobs easier to use on the second with gloves on which was something the operators requested. I also think the newer ones are coyote rather than deep green. My preference is still the first model for competition. Mark there is a comprehensive thread on AR15.com and also sniperhide.com which are both over a year old. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Charles Thanks. Helpful as always. MHearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Mark, do you have this scope? and if you do what are the exact model number and descriptor numbers for it. I have been looking for one for quite sometime now, but all the people that have DRs can't seem to tell me which retical is in the ones they have, and I guess they can't open a box to look. Kurt Scope got dropped off at the house yesterday. Very sweet. Looking forward to the range. Exact Model number and descriptors: Elcan SpecterDr DFOV14-C1: 5.56mm MHearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Well, took the day off and drove 100 miles to the range that will go out past 600 yards. Based on my earlier post the goal was to verify stadias in the scope that is pre-calibrated for M855 62 grain military ammo but duplicating it using my 75 grain handloads. On using ballistic programs based on my handloads everything looked perfect on paper. Well, it wasn't. Not bad though. I had to come up 2 MOA to get on at 300 and that same 2 MOA come up put me on at 400. But now my dead on zero changed as did everything else up to 300. Still not too bad. Then I went out to 500 and 600. My question is this. Does anybody make a scope that will allow you to program the stadia lines to the scopes point of aim/bullets point of impact tailored to your scope/gun/ammo combination? Kind of like an electronic etch-a-sketch in a scope. If not, I think there may be a few bucks in it for the inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 On using ballistic programs based on my handloads everything looked perfect on paper. Well, it wasn't. Not bad though. I had to come up 2 MOA to get on at 300 and that same 2 MOA come up put me on at 400. But now my dead on zero changed as did everything else up to 300. Still not too bad. Mick Thanks for the info. Hope to check mine this week. MHearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now