mloch Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Lately I´ve been playing around with a thumb rest on my Standard gun because a shooting buddy of mine (who is also a Range Officer) told me that they would be legal now. He stated that since IPSC dropped the "external modifications" wording from the IPSC Standard Division rules there would be no reason why a shooter would not be allowed to mount one of these on his Standard gun. Well yesterday I had an intense discussion with a Range Master who wanted to dump me into Open because of my thumb rest. Therefore I decided to dismount it. Today I´ve read the thread about the legality of slide rackeers on a Limited/Standard pistol here with great interest and so I like to ask if thumb rests are legal in IPSC Standard Division or not? Additionally I really like to know what is the correct procedure for testing if the gun fits in the box. During the discussion the Range Master argued that my gun would never pass the "box-test" because when you lay the pistol in the box with the ejection port upwards (muzzle points to the right) the pistol would pitch. Therupon I told him if the gun is layed in the box with the thumb rest upwards (muzzle points to the left) it would easily pass the "box-test". But he told me that this wouldn`t matter because he is the one who would decide how the pistol is layed in the box and not the shooter - Could any one clarify this topic for me? Thank you very much & Safe shooting (...with a lot of Double Alphas) Marijan Loch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A33435 Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hello Marijan, The tumbrest is surtenly a hot topic these days and ofcourse, also at your match yesterday there was also a lot of discusion. Most of the NRO'S and IROA's present stated it is legal for standard. Some didn't know for sure As far as i know the thumbrest is legal at the moment. But my opinion is that it should be banned for IPSC standard, as long as it's legal, please use it. The correct procedure for testing if the gun fits in the box. is trying to fit the gun in the box and not trying to find a way i wouldn't fit. Greetings Adrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi Marijan, I'm striving to find something in the NEW rulebook that prevents a competitor to use a thumb rest, but I'm loosing the battle. Seriously, if you look at the standard division specifications, apart from optics, ports and compensators (and some other minor amenities), there is almost nothing you can't do to customize your gun, provided it fits into the box. And now the best part comes: you have to be sure that the gun fits completely in the box! I mean that it has to fulfill the 45 mm (+1 tolerance) depth requirement too. I suspect the RM told you that because he might have noticed that, if the gun was laid into the box resting on the thumb rest side, it might have canted (pitched) at the point that some part of the gun would stick out of the box with respect to depth, thus evidencing that some part of the gun was not complying with the required depth. I'd suggest you to try to lay the gun on its left side into the box, and then checking with some sort of lid (cardboard or whatever else) there is nothing protruding from the box and thus preventing the lid to lay flat on all 4 sides of the box itself. If this proves to be successful, there is nothing in the rulebook that can prevent you from using such item (apart from some illiterate ROs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi, I looked up both the current rules (IPSC Handgun rules) as well as the new ones which become effective per 01-01-2004. Reading the current rules I come to the conclusion that a thumb rest is allowed in SD. Reading the new rules I come to the same conclusion. The new rules for standard are simplified a lot compared to the current ones. And IMHO if the RM behaved as you describe below, he's "not doing a good job" to say the least It is NOT his job to make a shooter's life more difficult, but to enable a safe and enjoyable match where the rules are upheld without personal biases. It is NOT up to him to decide how a gun should be fitted in the box. The rules say simply that the gun must fit in the box. Not more, not less. His first option should be to look for a way to fit the gun IN the box, not the opposite ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I understand the question, but how does having one (thumbrest) on your pistol, help you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloch Posted October 20, 2003 Author Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi Adrie & Skywalker67, first of all thank you for your fast replys @Skywalker67 Well laying the gun on its left side is the thing (...maybe even problem) - I could lay my gun on its left side and when I close the box with a lid or put the box over it the gun will fit into the box without any problems. But if the lid or any other device is quite light it could get pushed upwards by the gun. One thing which is quite funny is that even "typical" Standard guns without thumb rests could fail the box test quite easily if they are layed on the left side - provided that they have got an extended mag release. The extended Mag release will cause the gun to pitch so that the Magwell will stick out of the box. So even these guns would fail the box test if the lid is not heavy (like the cardboard you have mentioned) enough to push the gun downwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Mloch, the different laying suggestion I made was intended to outline some possible issues that could go unnoticed, not to find a way the gun wouldn't fit the box. The possibility you refer to (gun laying on left side, oversize mag button, magwell protruding from box) is really a non-issue: if the gun depth (the one supposed to be measured by the box depth) is less than 45 mm, and it can be verified by laying the gun on its right side, no matter if you find a way the gun doesn't fit the box, the gun's depth is still less than 45 mm. LOL, you could even "lay" your gun resting on magwell and dustcover foreend (i.e. vertical), and have it protruding a lot from the box, but noone would ever dream of checking your gun this way! I have to agree with Garfield, the test is supposed to look for a way to fit the gun IN the box, not the opposite ! Otherwise, with a 45mm box smallest dimension, no gun will ever fit the box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloch Posted October 20, 2003 Author Share Posted October 20, 2003 @ Skywalker67 Of course you are right and I really appreciate your suggestions . But I just wanted to point out that if someone wants to find a way that a certain gun won`t fit the box he will obviously be successful. And it seemed to me that this RM was more interested in finding a way the gun won`t fit the box than the other way around @Garfield thank you for your research in the rule book. Much appreciated @tightloop In my opinion the thumb rests helps to insure a more consistent grip and enables the shooter to bring his support hand closer to the bore axis. Thus one will notice less muzzle flip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 MLoch, My esteemed colleagues have already answered your question correctly, but I confirm that there is absolutely no prohibition against thumb rests in IPSC Standard Division, provided the gun fits wholly inside the box. And there is no predetermined way to place the gun inside the box - if you can find a way to make the gun fit within the three internal dimensions, then your gun is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 My esteemed colleagues have already answered your question correctly. Waaahoooo!!! "esteemed colleagues"...we're in the jedi's council by Darth's approval!"!!!! Yippppeeee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 OK you guys, Behave yourselves, otherwise I'm gonna send Princess Leia over to spank you. HEY! Get that damn smile off your faces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Vince: How many official boxes should there be at a match ? At last year's Med Cup, each RO who had a box with him claimed that it was the official Box. I think Even or one of his shooting buddies had trouble with one box. The gun wasn't fitting in one way, and if you turned the box 180 degrees, the gun just fit well. That's also what I believe, the gun must fit in the box and the RO should try has many times as needed until it fits, or not ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Behave yourselves, otherwise I'm gonna send Princess Leia over to spank you. Or you can send us some nice (italian) bartender... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 At last year's Med Cup, each RO who had a box with him claimed that it was the official Box. Julien, I may be giving away my appointment with the very next post, but it is my understanding that all official boxes for checking divisions compliance should be "appointed" and approved at least by the Match RM, they cannot be claimed to be official only on the words of the RO. It is the same as per the shot calibres/gauges: only the officially issued NROI/IROA ones are accepted to actually gauge a hole in the target; you're not allowed to use your self-made one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Behave yourselves, otherwise I'm gonna send Princess Leia over to spank you. Or you can send us some nice (italian) bartender... Oh no don't start this again, we discussed the spanking and Italian issue already thoroughly And on-topic: I think Skywalker67 is right, it seems logical. In the rules nothing is stated about this, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 AS long as Darth don't send Chewbacca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Hi guys, The next IPSC Rulebook (January 2004) already includes language to deal with scoring overlays: 9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively, as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable scoring zone of hits on paper targets. In respect of "the box", the Standard and Modified Division rules merely state: 16. A handgun in it’s ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded and with an empty magazine inserted, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1 mm, -0 mm). Note that all magazines must comply, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply. Although the rule is silent on "which" box (I've already added that to my list of things to fix next year ), the accepted protocol at most major matches is to have one "official" box in the chrono area, and competitors shooting Standard or Modified Division are checked at the same time their ammo is chronographed. Of course there's currently nothing preventing the use of multiple boxes at a match and, if a competitor's gun fails to fit, he can always ask to have the subject box measured and/or have his gun checked in another box, and a reasonable RM would never object to such a request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 and I thought I knew what a thumbrest was...until Marijan told us it allows the support hand closer to the bore... Someone got a picture of what this thingy looks like? Is it for the support hand thumb??? Now I know what keeps me at 70% of Robbie... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 and I thought I knew what a thumbrest was...until Marijan told us it allows the support hand closer to the bore... Someone got a picture of what this thingy looks like? Is it for the support hand thumb??? Now I know what keeps me at 70% of Robbie...--Detlef What's that, lack of total dedication to shooting for 20 years? Practicing everyday and shooting a bazillion rounds? Spill it for us, what is holding you back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Detlef, I don't have an image, but let me try to explain it to you. 1) Imagine a 1911-style pistol, with the usual thumb safety, which your right thumb rests on while shooting. 2) Now imagine a similar shaped item in place of (or on top of) the slide lock. 3) Now imagine your weak hand thumb resting on it. Hence you have a place to rest each of your thumbs while shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 thanks, Vince. Sometimes I am behind the technology curve... L2S: The thumb rest, man, didn't you get it???? How can I win without one???? --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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