jodus Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 can someone explain to me the "feeling" from the shoulders down. I'm doing it but it feels like my offhand pinky is straining. Hopefully that explains what i'm looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Well, just what is it you are doing? (sometimes a "name" doesn't really tell us what technique is being used, or tried) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I am just going to guess at what you are asking, ok? Some people are built different than others & they can shoot with a more stable platform if they move their elbows out further or bring them in closer together. I"m not sure a "feeling" has much to do with it but instead it is about control of the gun & recoil. If your pinky is straining, I am not sure you are setting up properly for your body. Or it could be you need to stretch your pinky some & work it to limber up & build your best possible platform. Video yourself with various elbow positions while shooting & watch the recoil. Then try swinging your body to acquire targets to your left & right with various elbow positions. If you get locked up somewhere or your movement is restricted, try to work out a different elbow/arm position. That is probably more than I really know but I tried to help, anyway. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodus Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 thanks miller, you helped think thru what i was trying to say. what i mean is my support hand grips tighter with elbows out and is causing or letting me feel it my hand more not necessarily straining. i like shooting this way and would like someone who does to describe their way to me so i can adapt some more i think that is what i was trying to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Glad I could help a little bit, anyway. I shoot elbows halfway between tucked & swung way out so I am afraid I can't do much for you. The recoil of the gun will tell you what you need but advice from others that have gone down the road always helps. matt burkett talks a little about this on one of the first two videos. I suggest you video or have a friend that has a keen eye watch you as you try different positions. Set up the camera, say out loud what you are doing so you know when you watch it. Don't be embarassed. It is to make you better so it is a good thing. Shoot video from different angles, while working your way through various elbow positions. You will see what is working & what isn't. A couple of years ago I noticed an older gentleman that shoots with us having trouble with his recoil so we swung his arms out some & helped him out a lot. Since we did that about two years ago, he has slowly worked his way back in about halfway, the more "average" position but he used that time to help learn to control the recoil. Very interesting for me. Good luck, keep asking questions. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Without the gun, let your arms hang naturally at your sides. Notice the slight bend that occurs at the elbow when the muscles are relaxed and the arm is just hanging loosely. Now keeping this elbow position, raise both arms in front of you as if you would be holding your pistol and notice the axis angles of the elbow joints (specifically, look for an imaginary line drawn perpendicularly through the elbow joint to get the Y axis...). I've found that if the neutral elbow position can be preserved, for most people the angles of both elbows will tend to intersect around the master eye...which is a nice little alignment checking device if you ever feel something in your mount has drifted off. You can check this in front of a mirror easily. It also tends to place the elbows in (more or less depending on the individual) the best compromise position for recoil management. Raise the elbows too much and the shoulders/neck get over-tensioned; lower them too much and the gun bobs up and down in recoil. Natural and neutral is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodus Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 Thanks i like the natural bend in the elbows thing, sometimes u cant see the forest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayou45 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Without the gun, let your arms hang naturally at your sides. Notice the slight bend that occurs at the elbow when the muscles are relaxed and the arm is just hanging loosely. Now keeping this elbow position, raise both arms in front of you as if you would be holding your pistol and notice the axis angles of the elbow joints (specifically, look for an imaginary line drawn perpendicularly through the elbow joint to get the Y axis...). I've found that if the neutral elbow position can be preserved, for most people the angles of both elbows will tend to intersect around the master eye...which is a nice little alignment checking device if you ever feel something in your mount has drifted off. You can check this in front of a mirror easily. It also tends to place the elbows in (more or less depending on the individual) the best compromise position for recoil management. Raise the elbows too much and the shoulders/neck get over-tensioned; lower them too much and the gun bobs up and down in recoil. Natural and neutral is key. very good info - I'll have to try this next range outing. I usually tense up after a mag or 2. After 5 more mags I feel like I been lifting weights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 You will see a lot of top-notch shooters do this differently. Some will have thought a lot about it, others will just be where they are from thousands and thousands of rounds down range. Some will be big guys with short arms. Some will be short guys with long arms...or any variation in between, and more. Some will have shot light target loads for the majority of their shooting, others will have been brought up on 190pf loads. There are two or three things that pop to mind when I think about shooters addressing this: - As MLM mentioned...and BE has brought up time and time, again... The ultimate goal is for the gun to come back onto the target in a consistent manner, ready for the next shot. And, of course, in our game...that needs to happen efficiently. Early on (and still), I liked doing Bill Drills to try this stuff out. Further, a variation on Burkett's Timing Drills (search for it) would be even more effective. So, what you are after is a grip and stance that allows the front sight/dot to lift and then return for the next shot (without you having to muscle it around to do so). - Index. A major goal of mine used to be to present the gun and have the sights lined up and on target...and to work this so that this index was on further and further out. So, this is a factor in my grip...stance...index. - Reliability. Maybe I should have put this first. The gun has to run. We, with our grip and stance, provide the stable system that holds the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodus Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 did some practice draws for 4 days with trying for my extention to stop with my elbows bent as if they were at my sides and it feels great, this weekend i'll try some drills to see how the sights track. i wanted someone to put into words what my body was trying to do and it was perfect so far, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I've been thinking about this tonight - I always shot with my elbows rotated in, so I could apply pressure from shoulders on the gun, but if I were to push against something - such as in a press, I know how critical it is to keep my elbows in, for maximum strength, and it closes the bottoms of my hands, and keeps my shoulders in a much more neutral position. Yoga, at least yoga taught by someone who actually studied anatomy, is awesome, both for heeling old jocks and teaching "neutral" stressed positions - if I can get a shooting pose to feel like a yoga position, I think I will have nailed it down pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Flex's reply was extremely well thought out, and got me thinking which of those categories I learned my arm position in... Probly the millions of reps club. My advice is always to face the target, then hold out your empty hands and clap them together. Now allow the arms to relax as naturally as possible. That works as well as anything I've ever tried. It's best to play with the amount of tension vs. relaxation in there during timing drills. You can make a lot of adjustments to various parts and see their effects right away... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) Empty hands - gave interesting results... The "fighting stance" with shoulders rolled over really felt inefficient. Also uncomfortable without a gun. The relaxed with shoulders forward and down gave noticeably more force both to the sides and push forward. It's as if the lower the shoulders the more leverage you have on the gun. Kinda like aikido mechanics. The location of the shoulders seem to dictate where the elbows point. Hard to explain but very cool. DNH Edited January 11, 2013 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Lowering, and leveling, the shoulders is exactly what you teach in a competitive bench press - aka, "Keep your elbows tucked." Same in an over-head press. I was messing with the draw stroke, and it may make more sense to still let the shoulders come up to for the initial pull, and then drop them as the gun goes out, but it may not be required - there certainly isn't a great deal of force needed. Even if there was, in a lift, the shoulders are kept down and back to be able to pull to the maximum effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Elbows in, for me, is a far weaker position at any point beyond early extension than elbows out. I've read all different stuff from different powerlifting gyms, but I think alot of the talk about tucking elbows on the bench press involves geared lifters that use that technique at the bottom of their bench press to help them touch in a tight/stiff shirt and to keep their elbows under the bar when touching the bar lower than a raw (no bench press shirt) lifter would. And I think any talk about raw lifters tucking elbows is more about injury prevention at the bottom of the lift than anything else (it's rough on the shoulder joint to press heavy weight off the chest with elbows out.) As far as I know most gyms, talking about geared or raw bench pressers, advocate flaring the elbows out at the point in the press where the triceps take on a larger role (which is somewhere around halfway through the press.) I think the top end of the bench press is alot more relevant to our shooting positions than the bottom end (bar coming off of the chest.) I've got to play with the right elbow position for my shooting - I'd not really even considered it relevant until I noticed Steve using that position a couple of weekends ago. A buddy and I sort of played with it last weekend and we both thought we noticed better recoil control. But that could've been just from not being extended so far out, which we were working on because we were both thinking that trigger freeze was happening because we were overextended (not sure yet whether over extension causes trigger freeze for me, either, but that seems to be the case and a shooter with the worst case of trigger freezes I've ever seen is extended WAY out to what appears to be an unnatural position.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 "But that could've been just from not being extended so far out, which we were working on because we were both thinking that trigger freeze was happening because we were overextended (not sure yet whether over extension causes trigger freeze for me, either, but that seems to be the case and a shooter with the worst case of trigger freezes I've ever seen is extended WAY out to what appears to be an unnatural position.)" Trigger freeze is ALWAYS caused by tension. Over-extension could be a symptom of or a pseudonym for tension. All things equal, you should get better recoil management from looser elbows and relaxed arms to a point. This is why you've got to play with it in live fire. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Flex's reply was extremely well thought out, and got me thinking which of those categories I learned my arm position in... Probly the millions of reps club. My advice is always to face the target, then hold out your empty hands and clap them together. Now allow the arms to relax as naturally as possible. That works as well as anything I've ever tried. It's best to play with the amount of tension vs. relaxation in there during timing drills. You can make a lot of adjustments to various parts and see their effects right away... SA It seems like any alteration from this natural position would require muscle tension to hold it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) I think that's exactly it. I don't think the shrugged shoulders, and elbows up is natural. Its always a fight to get new shooters to do it - admittedly, I'm more smashed up than most, from years of being an idiot - but in a yoga pose, or a lift, you want to keep your shoulders level, and "pulled back", along w. the tucked elbows... It felt very good w. empty hands, and... different... in dry fire. I always thought the soreness in my shoulders was just from dealing w. the recoil, but that doesn't really make sense. I think it also might help w. shooter's elbow... Edited January 12, 2013 by Aglifter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I'll need to catch up on the latest posts, but wanted to add this... I bought a weighted medicine ball (about 2/3 the size of a basketball, but a bit heavier). I use that to convey to people the idea of the gun recoiling. I get in front of them and throw the medicine ball to them (chest pass). Once they get the feel for the weight of the ball, I have them throw it right back at me. As I repeat this, with them throwing it right back at me, they tend to get into a stance on their own. They don't have weight back on their heels, etc. They naturally adjust to the task, per their own body mechanics. Nobody has their elbows pointing (mostly) down. And, if they stiff arm it, then the weight of the ball pushes their shoulders back (you don't want that...it is like a jab in boxing/wrestling pop...which causes you to reset). There will be exceptions, nothing is absolute. But, keep an open mind. Understand what is happening. Have a clear desire of what you want to see. Allow your body to help you figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) There will be exceptions, nothing is absolute. But, keep an open mind. Understand what is happening. Have a clear desire of what you want to see. Allow your body to help you figure it out. Flexmoney, I think you make a great point. (You also sound like Brian E. ) It's about shooting the gun and understanding what is happening. It's not about what you look like because we're all different. I think the medicine ball exercise is great because you're getting the shooter to actually deal with the forces and develop a technique in a dynamic way. So many times people rehearse a "look" and due to their body or tenseness they hurt their performance. Trying to hold a "look" back in my Weaver days was static and I had a hard time improving. Additionally, having someone resist the force of simulated recoil they're immediately programming their subconscious. The shooter just responds to the feel of recoil. They don't have to say to themselves put the weight on the balls of the feet, lean forward a little etc. . Thanks, DNH Edited January 16, 2013 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Flexmoney, I think you make a great point. (You also sound like Brian E. ) LOL...there is a good reason that sounds like the Ghost Dog. He told me the same thing years ago. I blatantly rehashed it, and hope that I do it some justice. I think you hit a great point as well. We tend to do what we visualize. That could be good or bad. If you are lucky enough to have started into this stuff in the last 10yrs or so, you have the benefit of getting to see what good performance looks like (sooo much more online info and graphics). But, that may just be a shortcut to the current state of things. When I started, I was doing the weaver...like on the movies and TV. Hmmmm...I wonder if I can find where Brian told me to let my body figure most of this stuff out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Hmmmm...I wonder if I can find where Brian told me to let my body figure most of this stuff out... Didn't find it yet, but found this... I've been talking about this stuff for a while. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22755&hl=+elbows#entry267123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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