New aftermarket product for LocknLoad AP

[Peakbagr]

For anyone with a Hornady Lock n Load progressive AP press, you might want to check a new product. I'm posting this as a review to assist Hornady owners, not a product shill.

I have no commercial connection with this product other than being a frustrated Hornady LnL owner. I was having problems with the Hornady Powder Thru Expander - a combination powder die and and case expander. It applies too little flare leading often causing lead shaving. This is a REAL problem if 99% of your bullets are lead.

I happened on a discussion of the Hornady product on one of the shooting boards and started corresponding with one of the posters. As it turns out, he is an engineer by training and had been toying with an aftermarket design that works with calibers .22 thru .45. After some back and forth email, a few people got to test prototypes and it came thru with flying colors.

Hornady's PTX does expand the case mouths, but usually in just the very top of the brass. For me, when cycling the press, I need to hold the lead bullet in place so it enters the seater in a vertical position. Otherwise it flops over. This new design allows me to dial in amount of flare, and the flare is more tapered deeper into the case mouth. This is doubly important with bevel base bullets where their bottoms make contact with the brass only at the top of the bevel.

IHornady makes 7 different PTXs, each with very shallow nose tapers. This new design has a long taper and work with all calibers up to .45

The Hornady LnL is a great press and as far as I saw, really had only one flaw. This fixes the issue.

http://www.lnlptx.com/.

[ninefan]

I just bought one, we'll see how it does. Heck, it can't be any worse than the original ones.

[irq23]

Thnx for the heads up. I no longer bell and drop powder in the same station but I have been toying with the idea of adding a bullet feeder so I would need to do so again. I will try this if I do.

[Jim M.]

I see the problem with the Lock-N-Load. I’ve had the same problem since I bought one of the original Hornady Pro-7 presses, even before the ProJector and later the case activated powder measure were introduced. I’m not sure that lnlptx has a solution that doesn’t introduce another problem.

The Hornady PTX applies very little (or no) flare to the case mouth. It is only a case neck expander, and of course, a powder funnel. It operates the powder measure to drop the powder charge, and at the same time expands the case mouth. As you note, it doesn’t apply any flare to the case mouth, making it difficult to seat lead bullets. I load mostly lead bullets in these handgun calibers. The Hornady PTX works better with jacketed bullets.

From the pictures on their web site, it appears that the lnlptx expander will flare the case mouth properly, but I don’t see that it will expand the neck deep enough for seating bullets without excessive bullet and case distortion. The lnlptx expander looks very much line the Dillon pistol powder activator (Dillon part No. 13005), as used on the Dillon 1050. That works well on the Dillon 1050 because the case neck is already expanded in the stage following the size die, where primer pocket swaging also takes place, if you are swaging primer pockets.

But on the lnlptx as used on the Hornady L-N-L press, there will be no such stage. Sizing will take place in the first station, and the second station will be the powder drop and neck expand/flaring. Those steps have to be done at the second station in order to have a powder check die in station three, bullet seating in station four, and crimp in station five.

The Dillon 650 uses a “Powder Funnel” which does four things at the same stage: (1) activates the powder measure; (2) neck expands the case; (3) flares the case mouth as adjusted by the powder die, and (4) funnels the powder into the case. I use those same powder funnels in my Dillon 1050 (in place of the pistol powder activator) so that I am not dependent on having the expander/swage backup rod in the station following the size die. If I am not loading military cases, I don’t swage the primer pockets.

The Lee Auto-Disk powder measure uses expanders which work much the same as the Dillon. That is, they include all four of the same functions as the Dillon, including both case neck expansion and case mouth flaring.

The lnlptx, by comparison, does not have any facility for expanding the neck – it only flares the case mouth.

How does that work out in practice? Since both Dillon and Lee have incorporated both case neck expansion and case mouth flaring in their powder through expanders, it seems as if there must be some benefits to that.

It seems that a better product would be a powder through expander much like that now made by Hornady, but with a slight flare at the top of the neck expander portion of the die, much like that of Dillon or Lee.

I used a Lee Auto-Disk powder measure on my Hornady Pro-7, since updated to a ProJector, to get a case-activated powder measure that both neck expands and flares the case for seating lead bullets. I now have an extra Dillon powder measure that I am currently using with the Dillon powder funnels, and may continue to use until Hornady solves the PTX problem.

I don’t think the lnlptx will be as effective as the Dillon powder funnels or Lee expanders, because it doesn’t neck expand as well as flare the case mouth.

[lugnut]

I don't know why people say the std LNL doesn't add enough of a bell/flare. It's not that hard to set up. Smaller cases like 9mm are trickier to get the full range of the pistol rotor but it's doable. Most of the cases that I put thru the LNL PTEs bell just fine. Occationally some don't flare enough but I don't want too much bell on the others so it's usually just fine for me.

Wrt "neck expanding"- why is this even needed? Why would you size a case and then expand the neck? I know what you are saying with the LNL PTEs but I don't think the design was to actually expand the neck... and if it does it's probably just to get some uniformity due to varying case thicknesses.

[20nickels]

I PTX in 3 calibers and it has worked great from the get-go for me although I have heard of others having issues. Something must be up if they think they need to improve it.... or sell you something else.

[Peakbagr]

I shoot lead bullets, a lot of them. The LnL applies a flare to the very top of the case mouth unlike traditional expanders. I've been told by the Hornady folks that there is enough difference in the tolerances of the powder thrower and the threads that a tiny bit of length or shortness can mean not enough flare. You can monkey around with loosening the clamp on the powder thrower, move it a thread or two, then retighten and try again to get tired of it quickly.

When speaking with the techs at Hornady, they suggested trial and error with the powder measure clamps as they hear this all the time.

Maybe you got lucky, the dimensions on the base of your powder measure is right on spec, and you get enough flare. If you are at the end of the range of your adjustment, though, you can only go so far.

The LnLPTX lets you easily adjust the flare for different bullets but making slight adjustments in the powder die.

Go over on some of the other shooting boards. Lots and lots of folks having the same problem with the Hornady PTXs.

[ben b.]

You can unscrew the powder drop tube a few turns to get extra length of push and more bell. I have done this for 9mm, not needed for .40 or .45. Adjusting the clamp/threads did not improve it enough for me.

[20nickels]

I see in the 2009 catalog they have two .45 PTX's now one for .451 & one .452. Perhaps that will help you lead shooters. Also, I polished the tips of mine for smoother operation as well as many moving parts on my LNL.

[bubbadoc]

Maybe I am just too impatient, but I cannot get my PTX's to work right... lot's of lead shaving. So, I went ahead and just ordered one of these aftermarket ones....

I will be one of the guinea pigs and also let ya'll know how it works.

[LNLPTX]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am Dan from LNLPTX.com and the inventor of the aftermarket unit referenced above for the LNL. I'm also an engineer by trade working in the conveyor and material handling business as a full time on the road commissioning engineer.

Jim M,

The idea behind my design is to flare the case mouth only. On straight wall catridges, most notably pistol rounds, flaring the brass is required to prevent distortion of the bullet from the case mouth by shaving lead/jacket material or deforming the case. By applying flare to the case mouth, the bullet can clear the case mouth and then be pressed into the brass, where tension from the case holds the bullet in place. There is no specific need to expand the brass below the case mouth, in fact doing so would be counter-productive, as neck tension holds the bullet in place on a straight wall round and increasing neck size reduces the tension on the bullet. If you recall from bottle neck reloading, the case mouth isn't expanded at all. The same princple applies to straight wall rounds, however, the flaring is required so the bullet can clear the case mouth to avoid being shaved/deformed or crushing the case. Think of it as a snake eating a mouse, the snake must first expanded his mouth to eat the mouse, however once the mouse enters the snake, the mouse "expands" the snake as it travels through the snake.

Also, the leade on Dillon and Hornady OEM units, serves as a point to guide the powder funnel/PTX into the case and then activate the powder measure, dropping powder and flaring concurrently. This system works fine, however, it has been noted the powder funnels/PTXs have been know to hang up in revolver rounds and other large caliber handgun rounds. A few months back, I was involved in TiN coating a Dillon powder funnel for 41 mag, for this exact problem, the leade of the funnel was hanging up in the brass, resulting in distorted cases and spilling of powder as the powder funnel exited the case. The fix involved polishing the powder funnel to 6 RMS and then TiN coating to preserve the surface finish. Rather than go through post processing the powder funnels/PTXs, I used a design that requires no leade as the taper provides the leade on the design and use less contact area, to ensure smooth operation.

The Hornady measure with my design functions the same as the Dillon, except for being a rotary drum type and without a leade on the powder funnel/PTX.

Aside from being specifically designed to work with lead, the Universal PTX replaces an entire set of five or more caliber specific PTXs and functions with rounds from 30 to 50 cal. Also, you don't need to tear down your powder measure to replace the PTX during a caliber conversion. Simply loosen the lock ring and reposition the Universal PTX for the new round and you're ready to go.

_______

I want to thank those of you who have ordered from me. I'm making these as fast as I can, I am backlogged due to demand. I sent everyone who has a pending order an email tonight, I hope to have all units shipped end of the week into next early next week.

If I can be of any assitance, I can be reached direct at sales@lnlptx.com

Thanks!

Dan

Edited April 21, 2009 by LNLPTX

[Jim M.]

Dan:

Thanks for your response on the forum. It’s always nice to hear from those who actually know why things are designed the way they are.

The idea behind my design is to flare the case mouth only. On straight wall catridges, most notably pistol rounds, flaring the brass is required to prevent distortion of the bullet from the case mouth by shaving lead/jacket material or deforming the case. By applying flare to the case mouth, the bullet can clear the case mouth and then be pressed into the brass, where tension from the case holds the bullet in place. There is no specific need to expand the brass below the case mouth, in fact doing so would be counter-productive, as neck tension holds the bullet in place on a straight wall round and increasing neck size reduces the tension on the bullet. If you recall from bottle neck reloading, the case mouth isn't expanded at all. The same princple applies to straight wall rounds, however, the flaring is required so the bullet can clear the case mouth to avoid being shaved/deformed or crushing the case. Think of it as a snake eating a mouse, the snake must first expanded his mouth to eat the mouse, however once the mouse enters the snake, the mouse "expands" the snake as it travels through the snake.

All standard loading dies with which I am familiar expand the case below the mouth. Doing so eases the entry of the bullet into the case and reduces bullet deformation, particularly with unjacketed lead bullets. The loader also wants uniform case neck tension, because neck tension affects bullet pull, which in turn affects pressure and velocity. Uniform neck tension yields better accuracy. Since cartridge cases have slight differences in brass thickness between brands or even lots, the easiest way to achieve uniform neck tension is to first size the case down so that the inside diameter of all cases is slightly below the desired final diameter, then neck expand to bring the case inside diameters up to a uniform standard.

You mentioned bottle neck cartridge reloading. Almost all of the bottle neck reloading dies that I use have an expander which fits inside the case as it enters the resizing die, then expands the case neck back up to the uniform size as the expander is withdrawn from the case at the second half of the resizing operation. The only exception to that is a custom sizing die made by a custom gunsmith and bench rest shooter who designed his rifle and cartridge to use only cases that were neck turned for absolute uniformity.

The Hornady measure with my design functions the same as the Dillon, except for being a rotary drum type and without a leade on the powder funnel/PTX.

Except that it doesn’t. Pistol sizing die sets resize the cases to a diameter which leaves the case mouth and neck smaller than is required for loading. Then, the case neck is expanded to produce uniform inside diameters and thereby uniform bullet pull and velocities. If the reloader is loading unjacketed lead bullets, it is very helpful to also flare the case mouth slightly in order to minimize bullet distortion and lead shaving. On the Dillon 1050, this flaring operation is important to prevent the lead shaving which will foul up the seating die in short order.

The Dillon 1050 neck expands the (pistol) case in the stage immediately following the sizing die – the stage at which the primer pocket swaging is also done. The tool mounted in the tool head for this operation is an expander and back-up die for the swaging operation – called just an “expander” by Dillon. So, the case neck is definitely expanded on the Dillon 1050 before the case mouth flare administered by the Pistol Powder Activator at the powder measure stage.

The Dillon 650 doesn’t have a primer swaging stage, so the neck expand and case mouth flaring is done at the same stage – the powder drop stage. The Dillon powder funnels (for the 650) have a section to expand the case diameter for uniform bullet pull, and also flare the case mouth.

Reloading dies made for single stage press reloading also expand the case neck, and can flare the case mouth if adjusted to do so. For jacketed bullets, case mouth flaring may not be necessary. For unjacketed lead bullets, case mouth flaring is beneficial to avoid lead shaving. But always, these loading dies expand the case neck below the case mouth to achieve uniform case neck tension and thereby uniform pressure and velocity.

The Hornady Powder Through Expanders expand the case neck. The problem some lead bullet reloaders (myself included) have with them is that they do not adequately flare the case mouth. That’s where your product comes in.

However, as I see it, your product duplicates the function of the Pistol Powder Activator as used on the Dillon 1050, BUT WITHOUT ANY PROVISION FOR ALSO EXPANDING THE CASE NECK for uniform neck tension. As I mentioned, the Dillon 650 “powder funnel” does both, because the 650 does not have an extra expand/swage stage.

Also, the leade on Dillon and Hornady OEM units, serves as a point to guide the powder funnel/PTX into the case and then activate the powder measure, dropping powder and flaring concurrently.

The Dillon and Hornady units also expand the case neck for uniform bullet pull – either in the expand/swage stage of the Dillon 1050 or in the powder drop/neck expand/case belling stage on the Dillon 650 and Hornady L-N-L.

Aside from being specifically designed to work with lead, the Universal PTX replaces an entire set of five or more caliber specific PTXs and functions with rounds from 30 to 50 cal. Also, you don't need to tear down your powder measure to replace the PTX during a caliber conversion. Simply loosen the lock ring and reposition the Universal PTX for the new round and you're ready to go.

It replaces the Pistol Powder Activator of the Dillon 1050, but does not perform the case expanding function. Similarly, on the Dillon 650 and the Hornady, the lnlptx does not do the case expansion at all – only the case neck flaring.

I have both Dillon and Hornady powder measures (at least two of each). On both brands, you don’t have to “tear down” the powder measure to replace the powder through expander. Both of those powder measures come off the powder die, and the powder through expander (which is located in the powder die, not in the powder measure) can then be replaced. Many reloaders have a separate powder die for each caliber reloaded to eliminate the chore of loosening the lock ring and repositioning the powder die to adjust for each caliber. I use separate tool heads for each caliber on the 1050, and each powder die is adjusted for that caliber and remains on the tool head. They are cheap, and that eliminates the chore of re-adjusting the powder die with each caliber change.

If I didn’t want to have a powder die for each caliber, I would just use the same Pistol Powder Activator and “loosen the lock ring and reposition” the powder die, as you describe. No tearing down of the powder measure is required.

I wish you well in your endeavor. I hope your customers get the kind of results they are looking for.

Jim M.

[Jim M.]

After I posted the entry above, I realized that it might have come off a bit harsh. If anyone reads it that way, I apologize.

I want to point out that the lnlptx can be useful, exactly as Dan has described, with one additional provision. In my opinion, a reloader still needs a way to neck expand the brass to give uniform neck tension.

If you have a conventional pistol reloading die set and you don’t mind giving up the possibility of a powder check die in station 3, you can still get both neck expansion and case mouth flaring with Dan’s die. Simply put your standard neck expand die in station 2. Set the neck expand die in station 2 to give full neck expansion, but little or no case mouth flare. Put the powder measure with Dan’s lnlptx in station 3. Then, set the powder die in station 3 (the powder measure stage with the lnlptx) to give the desired flare and drop the powder.

You shouldn’t have to buy any extra dies (other then the lnlptx) or the Hornady PTXs for this operation, as the neck expand die already comes with most standard die sets (Dillon dies being one exception). One lnlptx, combined with the neck expand dies you already have, will load all of the pistol calibers, as Dan notes. Just like the Dillon 1050, but with an lnlptx instead of the Dillon Pistol Powder Activator.

I don’t neck expand and flare separately, because I use a powder check die in station 3, but many reloaders don’t use such a powder check die and this will work well for them.

Jim M.