Is This Legal?

[exoninja]

The IPSC rule book says that shooters should be allowed to shoot on a "as and when visible" basis.

I've just started on airsoft IPSC, and the stages which I've played in, specified that I can only engage certain targets at a position, after which I must move to another position to engage other targets.

Is it legal to specify the targets that can be engaged at a position? Can I engage all targets if I can already see them at the first position, and complete the course without going to the second position?

[lynn jones]

exoninja,

why sure it is legal. sometimes range conditions can prohibit "shoot'em as you see'em". but usually vision barriers need to erected. you will find that the word "only" used alot in your type situation. the challenge of good course designers is not to use that word "only", and to use the "shoot'em as you see'em" words.

good luck and keep shooting.....and welcome to BE forums.

lynn jones

[exoninja]

Thanks for the reply.

So you're saying that, it's better if the course designer just brings the shooters to the course, and says, "Here it is, go figure.", and not specify the shooters' movements?

[Garfield]

Hi,

That's right. IPSC is not only a challenge in pure shooting skills as in hitting the target, but also deciding on your tactics to handle a certain stage.

This is what makes it so much fun IMO, as you need to figure out for yourself how you are going to handle the challenge.

The stage briefing should (a.o.) state the number of targets and the requested hits. Sometimes it is specified that you must engage this-and-that target before crossing such-and-so line, but that's it. Stage design should "regulate" the (safe) ways to shoot a stage, not the stage briefing (which in fact is prohibited by the rules).

Some quotes from the current handgun rules (available from the IPSC Website):

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC competition is freestyle. With the exception of Standard Exercises, a course of fire may not

specify a shooting position or stance. However, conditions may be created and constructed to compel a

competitor into positions or stances required by stage design. These conditions may include barriers and other

physical limitations. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner and

must always be allowed to shoot the targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Mandatory reloads may not be

specified except in Standard Exercises and Shoot-offs. Level I and Level II competitions and Classifiers are not

required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements, or the mandatory reload regulation, however,

mandatory reloads may never be required in Long Courses. A course of fire may specify strong hand or weak

hand. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the stage or

string.

1.2 Types of Courses

IPSC shooting competitions may contain the following types of courses of fire:

1.2.1 Principal Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” shall not require more than 9 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting

positions.

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” shall not require more than 16 rounds to complete, or more than 3 shooting

positions. Course design and construction shall not allow the opportunity for more than 9 scoring

hits from any single position or view.

1.2.1.3 "Long Courses" shall not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and

construction shall not allow the opportunity for more than 9 scoring hits from any single position

or view.

And BTW: Welcome to this forum !

[Flexmoney]

Thanks for the reply.

So you're saying that, it's better if the course designer just brings the shooters to the course, and says, "Here it is, go figure.", and not specify the shooters' movements?

I am a huge advocate of FREESTYLE.

If you are the one designing and setting-up the stages, your goal should be "shoot them as visable". That takes a lot more work than many think.

If you are just showing up and not helping with design and setup...then don't complain too loudly.

[TDean]

How 'bout this scenario.

Snow fence as Vision barriers, shooting through port.

No-shoots placed so that all targets cannot be seen through port, but I CAN see then through snow fence.

Can I shoot the gun through the port while I am looking through snow fence?

Someone told me I was being "too gamey", and the hard cover (snow fence) was to be seen as solid (non see through-able)

The targets ARE visible, the shots ARE going through port.

[lynn jones]

TDean,

as long as the shots go through the port. i'd say it's legal.

lynn jones

[Flexmoney]

"too gamey"

LOL

You didn't shoot thru the "hard-cover". No problem.

[bgary]

why sure it is legal. sometimes range conditions can prohibit "shoot'em as you see'em". but usually vision barriers need to erected. you will find that the word "only" used alot in your type situation. the challenge of good course designers is not to use that word "only", and to use the "shoot'em as you see'em" words.

Er.... uh.... um.... (trying to find the right words...)

"Technically", the rules say "freestyle". "With the exception of Standard Exercises, a course of fire may not specify a shooting position or stance." That means that a course designer canNOT legally say "shoot T1 and T2 from box A, only, shoot T3-T8 from box B, only", etc. There is no notion of "shooting boxes" in the rules, so... from a rules perspective, that's a no-no.

The rules *do* provide some exceptions to that. At "Level-1 and Level-2" matches (which equate to USPSA's "approved", or normal club matches, you are not "strictly required to comply with the freestyle requirements." However, it is certainly desireable to do so.

Bottom line is, the best courses (the most fun to shoot, the most challenging, etc) are ones where the shooter has to figure out how he/she is going to do it, based on his/her knowledge of skills, capabilities, etc. The most boring courses (IMHO), are the ones that say "go to this box, shoot these, go to that box, shoot those." We should try to avoid those wherever possible, and they are not "legal" at all in sanctioned matches (section-level or above) in USPSA.

Bruce

[exoninja]

OK, I just came back from another session of shooting. The course designer specified that "these targets can only be shoot at through this window". So I asked him, "Isn't that illegal?"

He said no, it is legal.

But I thought this is already in violation as the course designer specified a position?

Then there was another course where there is an obstacle, and there is a chair to help those who are shorter to get up. I asked, "If I'm tall enough and I don't use the chair, will I get a penalty?" He said "Yes, you must use the chair."

Erm...so is this illegal too? Can the shooter be forced to use a chair to help him overcome obstacles?

Oh, and 1 more thing. I pulled out my rulebook, which I downloaded and printed from www.ipsc.org, and showed them the part where it says the course may not specified a position or stance, he replied by saying, "There's another rulebook, go read that one." But I thought there's only ONE rulebook?

[Garfield]

Hi,

It depends on the level of the match. E.g. at a local club match IPSC rules do not have to be followed specifically, but on say a regional match the rules have to be adhered more strictly.

The current rules are the 14th edition 2nd revision of september 2002, which should be the one you have downloaded from the IPSC website. There are NO other rules in place for IPSC at this moment.

Per 01-01-2004 new rules will become effective. In another thread on rules on this forum Vince Pinto named most of the IPSC rules and revisions from the past years.

So I think the course designer might be mistaking on the rules part, and depending on the match level he is or is not in violation of the IPSC rules.

[bgary]

The current rules are the 14th edition 2nd revision of september 2002, which should be the one you have downloaded from the IPSC website. There are NO other rules in place for IPSC at this moment.

Not disagreeing with Garfield, just completing the answer.

The current rules in the US are the "14th Edition, 2001 US Version", also known as "the red book", which went into effect in April 2001. There are no other rules in the US.

As far as your questions go...

-- a course designer cannot legally say "you must shoot those targets from this box" and be in compliance with the freestyle requirements. Similarly, a course designer cannot legally say "you must shoot those targets through this port". What they *can* do is say "all targets must be engaged through ports" (or similar). So... if there are 4 targets (for example) downrange of a wall with two ports, you cannot legally say "shoot T1 and T2 through the left port, and T3-T4 through the right port". You can say "Targets T1-T4 must be engaged through the ports". If they really want to force specific targets from specific places, they need to use vision barriers, otherwise it should be "shoot them when you see them"

-- As noted above, there are exceptions to the "freestyle requirement" in smaller matches. If this is a club match, they are not strictly required to adhere to the "shoot them as you see them" rule... but it is certainly encouraged.

-- With the chair, it comes down to a question of stage instructions. If the "procedure" specified in the stage instructions says "using the chair, negotiate the obstacle and... [whatever]", you gotta do it. If the instructions say "negotiate the obstacle", it should be your choice whether you use the chair or not. So, yes, a shooter can be forced to use the chair (or, rather, "encouraged" to with the weight of procedural penalties), just as a shooter can be forced to open a door, carry a briefcase, etc.

-- In the rules revision process, we noted that there was a lot of confusion about what a "shooting position" was. For example, if the stage instructions say to shoot something from on the chair, is that a shooting position? Etc. So, that language got changed. Now there are three pieces of it: position, posture and stance, and each means something different, which will hopefully be clearer.

Bruce

[Skywalker]

Just to summarize what bgary and garfield already explained, according to IPSC rule book 14:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC competition is freestyle. With the exception of Standard Exercises, a course of fire may not specify a shooting position or stance. However, conditions may be created and constructed to compel a competitor into positions or stances required by stage design. These conditions may include barriers and other physical limitations. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner and must always be allowed to shoot the targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Mandatory reloads may not be specified except in Standard Exercises and Shoot-offs. Level I and Level II competitions and Classifiers are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements, or the mandatory reload regulation, however, mandatory reloads may never be required in Long Courses. A course of fire may specify strong hand or weak hand. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the stage or string.

Thus, it all depends on the level of the match you were attending.

[DogmaDog]

Hmmm,

For a low level club match I'd say it's OK to specify thngs like that in the course description. It may just be cost/time/logistics prohibitive to build/set up all the vision barriers/ports/etc. that would be required to force you to shoot the targets from two different positions. My local club uses barriers that don't extend all the way to the ground, and they always imply that they are to be treated as though they do, and such like (one barrier has a three-inch hole in it that has been labeled "not a port" to keep people from getting over on the stage designers).

Maybe they just need more help setting up stages, which is a lot of work.

DD

[SmittyFL]

DD hit it on the head.

While we all love and prefer "shoot them as you see them" on a course full of ports, walls, hallways, doorways, moving targets, etc. Unless you have a 10 man construction crew it is hard to set up a course like that all the time. Especially at a match with 5 or more stages. I would suggest asking the MD if you could come out early next match and help set up some stages. It has been my experience that MD's don't take kindly to someone complaining about the match or pulling out rule books when they didn't offer to help set up.

[Carlos]

" It has been my experience that MD's don't take kindly to someone complaining about the match or pulling out rule books when they didn't offer to help set up. "

Got that right. No one likes a range lawyer or a complainer. In designing indoor matches, I don't have the resources to control every possible way of shooting a stage so, for example, my "walls" (black plastic hanging from the overhead target carrier wires) only reach to waist level; I specify that they actually extend to the floor & no, you cannot shoot under them. I also, at times, specify that "all shots must pass through this port to score" - shoot in whatever position you like but only shots going through the port are going to count. No doubt that complete & total adherence to the "freestyle" concept is the best way to do all things USPSA but its not practical nor economical for a designer on a shoestring budget w/ limited help in a very short amount of time. Still, its fair as the rules apply the same to everyone.

[SmittyFL]

Carlos, I agree and understand.

I don't run any matches, but I do set up many of the stages at a couple of ranges I shoot at. It is tough to have all stages totally freestyle. Our particular range is shared by other clubs (cowboy, idpa) so we can't build permanant walls, barricades or the like. So you have to improvise and have boxes from time to time, I certainly don't expect that at a big match, but at local matches (especially indoor) I think it is accepted.

We set up the day of the match, so we only have enough help and time to build one or two stages with enough barricades and walls and stuff to be totally freestyle. The rest are boxes and mandatory ports, etc. Plus the classifer.

If everybody that shot the match came early to help it could be done, but that ain't gonna happen, so we do the best we can to put on a good match.