Light loads in 44 magnum

[Epidemic]

I hear alot about detonation in really small charges.  Yet most of the resources I read say that this has never been reproduced in the labs.   More than likely due to over charging mistakes.

But during several searches last night I found several sites that suggest really low charge weights way below the range suggested in the loading manuals.

Is there a resource for cowboy loads and lighter for plinking.  

They talked about 38's with report similar to a cb cap.

Using charge weights of 1 and 2 grains of 296 so forth and so on.

Does anyone know what is there a powder which is more conducive to these light charges or are they simply dangerous and not to be done no matter what the weight is.

Is there a point where there simply is not enough powder to reach critical pressures because there is not enough power cause danger.  I.e.  1 granual of powder will not cause damage.

(Edited by Epidemic at 4:36 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

TightGroup is where I would start looking.  Seems as it is designed to be insensitive to position in the case (lots of unfilled case volume in those big cartridges with little powder).

But, I don't really have any experience with Cowboy loads or 44mag.

[Epidemic]

The lee reloaders guide says that the powder needs to be a quick burning powder to be safer.

There is a risk of detonation with slower burning powder.   So the W231 is pretty good.   I would like to see some load data that indicates the real minimum charge.    

All the manuals start rather high in charge.  I would like to see the real low safe charge.

Basically the smallest charge that will dislodge the bullet and of course not blow the gun up.

(Edited by Epidemic at 6:15 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[George D]

Lowest charge would be zero grains. The primer will blow the projectile clear of the case and then fun can be had dislodging the projectile from the barrel. Can't think of a good reason to do this though, unless you want to "slug" the barrel to determine diameter.

Winchester publish loads for 44 special using 231 powder. Add 10% to acheive similar velocities in 44 mag case. Reduced loads won't cycle a Desert Eagle.

Winchester specifically warn against using reduced loads of 296 and 2400.

(Edited by George D at 12:37 pm on Oct. 24, 2002)

[Epidemic]

Well I did say the smallest load that will dislodge the projectile from the barrel.   Primer probably would not be the lowest load for that.

Is there any reduced load in a 44 case with 231 that would be dangerous beyond not coming out of the barrel.

[tightloop]

You must be very new at reloading or you would not even consider 1 or 2 grains of 296.  That is a very slow powder used for large bore handguns and other charges like 410 bore shotguns etc, but the use of it is to drive a big slug rapidly out of a handgun.  

Suggest you get with some cowboy action shooters and see what they use.  Most use .38 with minimal charges, not many Mags there.

While I am not the moderator of this topic, I would caution you that the interchange you had with EricW did not ingratiate you with many of the forum members.  It is OK to have strong feelings, but when we stop conducting ourselves with proper decorum, it is time to take a step backward, draw a deep breath, and relax a bit while you gain some perspective.  

Remember that this forum is voluntary, and no matter how many questions you ask, it is tough to have a conversation by yourself, no matter how interesting your topic may be.  So unless you plan on posting your own questions and answers, I suggest you get a handle on your emotions, take all the posts to your topics with a grain of salt, and if  you just cannot bear the heat of one or more rebuttals, sign off and come back a few hours later.

I am sure that if you give the other forum members the common courtesy they deserve, that courtesy will be returned many times over; and as time goes on yu may even enjoy EricW's very sharp mind and wit to some degree.  Even if you do not agree with everything he may say.

So, welcome to the forum, pick your topics carefully, and offer the same courtesy to others you would like to receive yourself.

[George D]

You actually said "Basically the smallest charge that will dislodge the bullet and of course not blow the gun up."

It would help to know what you are trying to acheive with low loads. Tightloop is right in everything he said in his last post, including his comment on 1 or 2 grains of 296. There would not be any loading table that are specific to only having the projectile clear the end of the barrel as there is normally no call for this type of load.

Powder loads vary according to projectile weight, design and seating depth. I noticed that in another thread you were questioning the Lyman formulae because it quoted less powder for a larger projectile. This is in fact the way it works. A smaller/lighter projectile is usually seated shallower giving more void-space in the case and therefore requiring more powder to acheive the same velocity.

For magnum rounds like 357 mag and 44 mag you should start with loading tables provided by the powder manufacturer for 38 spec and 44 spec. That is if you use the spec cases. If you use mag cases, rule of thumb is to add 10% to acheive similar velocities. For Win 231, the Winchester site contains a loading table for the 2 specials.

If you reduce the recommended load too dramatically you will certainly get erratic ignition even with fast powders and dangerous ignition with 296.

[Flexmoney]

Epidemic,

These guys bring up a good point...

What is wrong with just using published data?  That is what it is for.  It takes quite a bit of experience to stray from tried and true recipes.  Why take the chance.  There is likely a load that has been tested that will meet nearly any goal you have.

[Epidemic]

I did not say that I was looking to use 1 to 2 grains of 296.  The web site I found in a search suggested that they were using such a load.

I know it is a slow burning powder as I shoot 44 mag.  The site that I found in a search suggested that they were using it.  In my later posts I even mention that 231 would probably be the choice of powder I was looking to use.

The why of it is more geared toward cowboy action loads.   I have gotten several loads that kick like a 357 from a manufacturer I cant remember which one.   But I really liked them.  I would now like to simulate them myself.  I have a hundred 200 grain round nose 44 slugs "cowboy action slugs" and I would like to synthisize a nice safe mild round for my wife as well.  

She don't like dem dair hard hitters.  I like em but they still make me flinch a bit.

I exagerate when I say I want one that is minimum to dislodge the bullet.  So do not beat that point to death.  I just went to the extreme to say I want to know what range of poweder is safe.  

As far as sticking to the loading tables.  Well I just have not found any cowboy action tables.  Yet there is an industry for that.  So I have to assume that there is loading tables that are safe for it as well.

(Edited by Epidemic at 5:11 am on Oct. 24, 2002)

[Patrick Sweeney]

Get the Laser Cast loading book.  It has much data for competition shooting.

For light loads in the .44 Magnum, use fast powders and .44 Special data.

The blow up you mentioned in relation to reduced charges was a combination of: slow powders downloaded, in bottlenecked rifle cases, and happened so rarely as to be non-reproduceable.

There is a reason many shooters find, and stick with, what the loading manuals call "standard loads."  They produce good results for many shooters in many situations.  One drawback to seriously down-loaded handgun ammo is the increase in velocity variances from shot to shot.  Severe enough it leads to poor accuracy and a bullet in the bore.

[Epidemic]

I would use the 44 special data but case volume is different and my fears of the detonation come into play.  

If the fast powder is the key and I can load my magnum cases with special charges that is fine.  I just wanted to be safe as usual.

[Duane Thomas]

Patrick,

Damn! You beat me to the recommendation on the Laser-Cast reloading manual. It has specific data on CAS loads.

Epidemic,

Look seriously at using shorter casings for your CAS .44 Magnum loads. With light loads in big revolver cases you can get rid of a lot of the excess air space through the simple expedient of making the casing smaller. In .44 Magnum I'd look REAL hard at .44 Russian casings. (You may well already know this, but as the .44 Magnum was a lengthened .44 Special, the .44 Special was a lengthened .44 Russian. All three casings can be fired in a .44 Magnum revolver.)

[Epidemic]

Well actually no I did not know that about the 44 casings.   thanks.  Does the laser cast guide address the russian cases and adjust the loads accordingly.  Or do you have to fudge the OAL of the cartrige

[Patrick Sweeney]

If I could find my Laser Cast manual in the stacks of books and paper, I'd tell you.  However, Bruce Gray wrote it, and he is thorough and knowledgeable.  You can bet he tells yu the OAL and accounts for the different case lengths.

Again, the detonations were in bottlenecked rifle cases.  If you want to blow up a handgun, with a straightwall case, you have to go a different route.

[TDean]

Epi, the website I pointed out in another thread (www.hodgdon.com or more specifically http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/spc44mag.htm#top ) has data for 44mag "lite"

As Flexmoney said, TiteGroup would be a great powder for that use.

(Edited by TDean at 8:09 am on Oct. 25, 2002)

[Epidemic]

Thanks TDean.

[Duane Thomas]

The Laser-Cast manual has a separate section for .44 Russian.

[Epidemic]

do you fellars have a link for laser cast

[Flexmoney]

try a search on

http://www.google.com/

search for "laser cast", it may come up as Oregon Trail Bullet company...or words to that effect.

[George D]

I can't agree with Duane regarding short cases as I've found they leave lead residue in the chambers.

As Patrick says, you won't have any detonation problems using 44 spec loads of fast powder ( there is only 1/8" difference in case length between mag and spec cases). I shoot mid-range 44 mag through S&W 29C and 629C with mag cases all the time. Start with 44 spec loads and chrono the speeds. The Winchester manual nominates 5.4 gr of 231 with a 246gr lead projectile in 44spec case to give 795 fps. This load in a mag case would be a good starting point. Use about 1/2 grain more for 200 gr projectile.  Around 700-750 fps gives a nice accurate "pussycat" load. You could drop to 650 fps but below that you'll start getting unburnt powder residue and the standard deviation of the velocities will blow out.

[Duane Thomas]

"I can't agree with Duane regarding short cases as I've found they leave lead residue in the chambers."

Well of course they do. If you're constantly switching back and forth between short and long casings, you'll have chambering problems with the longer rounds. If not, it doesn't really matter.

[George D]

I can't see the advantage of resorting to a somewhat obscure ( and probably more expensive) short case when a small amount of extra powder in the mag case will do the same job.

I have done a substantial amount of accuracy testing with short cases in mag chambers for lite loads with lead projectiles, mostly with 38spec/357mag in a S&W 586 or 686. I have found that accuracy at velocities around 700-800 fps is improved if a magnum case is used. I think that this is because, if the projectile is seated so that it is crimped in the crimping grove (as opposed to flush with the case mouth), the projectile sits in the chamber throat rather than behind the transition ramp. Maybe firing the projectile into the ramp (as happens with the 38spec case) makes it slightly asymmetrical. Whatever, ...  I have found that it is detrimental to accuracy.

[Duane Thomas]

You're in Australia, right? Man, you NEED to move to the US. Factory new .44 Russian ammo is available from Black Hills, if not others. Starline sells the casings. They're not hard to find or expensive.

Remember, we're talking about Cowboy Action Shooting here. Ranges will invariably be short, targets will be large, extreme accuracy is not needed. Projectile velocity floor is, what, 600 fps. The light (and consistent) recoil that comes from a light powder charge (Titegroup, anyone?) in a short casing beats out greater accuracy but more recoil in a more hotly loaded Magnum casing - in that game, at least.

[George D]

G'day Duane. Yeah, I'm an Aussie, mate. [best aussie drawl]

.44 Russian? We'd have trouble buying 44 Spec. Titegroup? No way. Starline? Never heard of it. We have a choice of Winchester or  ...  Winchester.

"more hotly loaded " ??  Give me a break. But then,.. the original requirement was to just dislodge the projectile, so you may be right.

[shuffles feet modestly] ?? Nyuk, Nyuk. I like the man. Now I think I'll just nip off and chuck another shrimp on the barbie. [apologies to Hoges]

(Edited by George D at 5:07 pm on Oct. 26, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Well, "more hotly loaded" IS a relative term....