Light loads in 44 magnum

[George D]

I take your point, Duane, about relative recoil but in light loads I'm not sure that the "felt" difference would be significant.

I've always had the opinion that a revolver works better with the cartridge case that was designed for it's use and my testing has tended to support this premise.

[Epidemic]

Blue dot at around max charge is like letting some one smack your palm with a broom handle.  

12 Gr 231 with 180 JHP gave me the best performance  from the bench top rest the group was about 2 inches at 21 yards.

Interesting was the accurate # 2 with 9.2 gr and 240 SWC all pulled to the right about 3 inches.  I can understand the velocity changing elevation of shot.  But what makes a shot pull to the right or left.  This right pull was very predictable over 20 shots all were between 3 and 6 inches north and east of the target.

(Edited by Epidemic at 8:45 am on Oct. 28, 2002)

[Patrick Sweeney]

George,

Generations of PPC shooters here Stateside would disagree.  Those that shot in the Service category used .38 Special cases in .357 Magnum revolvers, and the good ones would shoot clean out to 50 yards.

If your data was generated using a Ransom rest, then for your revolver using Mangum cases makes a real and not imagined difference.  For most guns, it doesn't.

[Duane Thomas]

Epidemic,

Firing various guns, with various factory ammo, out of machine rests has convinced me that point of impact can vary widely, not just in elevation but in windage, from load to load - even among bullets of the same weight. This calls into question the conventional gunwriter "wisdom" for instance, of the folks who tell you, "Yeah, in .45 I carry 230-gr. hollowpoints in the gun so I can practice with hardball and they'll both hit in the same place." It's quite possible it just ain't gonna work that way.

[George D]

Right on Duane. My hand-loads with different lead projectiles vary considerably in windage and elevation, even if they are the same weight and even similar velocity. A ransom rest isn't necessary to detect this as I have found it can be as much a 8 inches at 50 yards.

Patrick, I shoot Service Match which is like PPC in many of it's stages, and identical in the 50 yard stage. I shoot with a custom 38 slab sided revolver and a S&W 586 and usually score 230-235/240 (PB 238) in the 50 yard stage. I have experimented shooting the 38 loads through the 586 and the groups invariably open up. But I take your point that it could be perculiar to this revolver as I have read articles that do give rise to that possibilty. It could also be that a different 38 load "tuned" to the 586 may tighten the groups, although the same revolver also shoots bullseye loads in tighter groups with a 357 case.

Both revolvers are shooting PF 120, using the same projectile and varing the powder load to acheive the same velocity, and I have never found the recoil from the "more hotly loaded" magnum case to be significant in either felt recoil or score. Even in the "crunch" stage, 6 shots on multiple targets in 6 seconds at 25 yards, the score difference between the 2 revolvers is not significant, so I'm not convinced that recoil levels at these velocities are a major factor. Hence my preference for shooting the case for which the pistol was designed.

[Patrick Sweeney]

George,

And in addition to the variances from gun to gun, the variances the shooter can induce can swamp the actual performance.  The whole reason I got a Ransom rest int eh first place was because the master shooters in our club (both of them) had insisted the 185's didn't shoot accurately in a .45.  (That alone should tell you how long ago it was.)

I got the rest, found out it wasn't true, and asked them how they knew.  (Without telling them what I'd found.)

They had derived that "fact" from having shot a couple of groups over sandbags with their standard load with substituted 185's instead of the 200 lswc they had been loading.  Mark and Dave were good shots, but a couple of groups was not statistically significant.

As a statistics professor once told the class, "Data is not the plural of anecdotal."

[George D]

Hi Patrick,

What you say is absolutely correct. There is a great deal of conclusion jumping that can be attributed to operator error. However, when test groups number around 40 to 50, sandbagging at 50 yards would be the nearest thing to statistically sound short of a Ransom rest. Group sizes and velocites were recorded and standard deviations computed. The laws of statistics dictate that, in a statistically significant field, loads of equal accuracy will produce equal results. The results I examined consistently showed a 90% ratio in favour of of the mag cases through my 586.

You may well be wondering why would I spend so much effort on such deliberations. The answer is (1) I like it, and (2) I found that it dramatically improved my shooting skills which is something that a Ransom won't do. Now, whenever my scores drop off the pace I go and do some load testing on sandbags at 50 yards and it usually helps my scores.

Incidentally, did your testing using the Ransom show the 185 and 200 LSWC were equal performers, and were you testing loads of equal velocity or of equal power factor?

(Edited by George D at 8:43 am on Oct. 30, 2002)

(Edited by George D at 8:46 am on Oct. 30, 2002)

[Patrick Sweeney]

We (there were four of us involved in the testing) carefully loaded a series of loads to the same power factor.  (We used the powders we were accustomed to using, half a dozen different ones as I recall.  We found that the 185's were equal to the 200's, provided good reloading practices were followed.

I also found out that my reloads were the least accurate of the group.  I had started reloading sooner, and bought used dies years before.  My worn, used, dies did not load ammunition as accurate as that of my compatriots.  I immediately went out and upgraded dies, then negated the whole investment by buying a then newly introduced Dillon SDB.

[Duane Thomas]

What was the problem with the "newly introduced Dillon SBD"?

[Patrick Sweeney]

I negated my investment in new .45 dies for my single stage press by bying a Dillon SDB in .45.  They stayed in storage until I won a 550 at the Golden Eagle years later.

[Duane Thomas]

Ah. Sorry, I thought you were saying there was a problem with the SDB. My mistake.

[Epidemic]

I got it I got it.  Small Base Die.

Hoooorah.

Speaking of small base dies is there a benefit of using a SBD on my tompson contender .223.  

They are a bear to get out after firing.  and they are no prize loading in.

[Flexmoney]

SDB stand for Dillon's Square Deal B.  A pistol caliber only progressive press that uses it's own special dies.  Affordable and effective.

Small Base Dies are something different.

[Epidemic]

Ahhhh crud I guess there is a difference between

SBD and SDB .  Dan lexdisia.

Now was that 15 grains or 51 grains ahhh whats the difference.

[tightloop]

Small base dies are dies used to swage the spent case (usually rifle, I don't know if they make sbd's for handguns) down to SAAMI specs.  Usually done by guys who shoot centerfire autoloaders in the same caliber in more than one rifle, to insure against malfuntions due to differences in chamber specs.

[Epidemic]

My pistol shoots .223 rifle ammunition.  

I do not see the difference basically it is a short .223 sub carbine @ 10.5 inches.