MBaneACP Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Ah Les... I still have that coonskin cap around here someplace, although I thnk it got the mange a few years back! I was out practicing yesterday (could happen!) and my shooting buddy asked if it was true that I had been one of the people who spearheaded the ban on 9-Major back in the Old Days. He said, "What's the big deal about a split case now and then?" I explained our "test to stupid destruction" theory, busted BHPs, blown Supers, Bruce Gray's MAB still in low earth orbit, duct-taping 1911s to tires then hiding behind a barricade and pulling the trigger with a piece of string. Finally my friend asked, "Were you guys crazy, or what?" I, of course, replied "Or what." Am gonna shoot a BHP in the IDPA Nationals in a couple of weeks, unless the BRAND NEW OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE KIMBER 9mm MATCH TARGET II I'm picking up today is just TOO cool. Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 "MAB in low earth orbit" is a scream. And here I thought I was the only one who deliberately blew up guns in the old days. The most esoteric one was the Colt 1903 fired with factory Super ammo to see if the slide really does break off and come back. 100 rounds, while secured to a 4x4 post, and still going. Too bad it had to go off to the smelter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I had a fascinating conversation with Bruce Gray yesterday, while interviewing him for an article in Sigarms' Velocity magazine. Bruce began firing combat pistol matchs in 1972. IOW he's been shooting IPSC since before IPSC even existed. He said, "People who weren't shooting combat matches 30 years ago don't really understand how few guns we had back then that were reliable and durable. Today it's different, when you can go into any gun store and pretty much any service auto pistol you buy will work and last for tens upon tens of thousands of rounds. But 30 years ago, what did we have to shoot? Well, we had the original Smith & Wesson Models 39 and the 59, which weren't very reliable and were famous for breaking. I saw one of those guns break after 500 rounds once. We had the Browning Hi-Power which isn't really a service pistol, it's a light duty pistol. Those would break after about 8,000 rounds. One of the main reasons the 1911 became so popular, so fast, so early in the history of combat pistol shooting, was that suddenly you had guys firing 50,000 or 100,000 rounds a year, and the 1911 was the only auto pistol that could actually do that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 7, 2003 Share Posted September 7, 2003 I doubt the 1911 praise will make it into the SIG house organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 8, 2003 Author Share Posted September 8, 2003 I don't think that would be a problem. After all, Bruce is talking about 30 years ago (I was shooting back then, too) and no one has ever accused Sig of making light-duty pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Besides, it's an open secret in the industry that SIG is getting ready to release their own 1911 clone (ditto for H-K). The Marine contracts are coming up and it lools like a 1911 spec. Overall FBI firearms contract is also coming up. Rumor was SIG was going to pop the 1911 in September, but they just cleaned house (lotsa empty offices), so who knows. Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 I doubt the 1911 praise will make it into the SIG house organ. We shall see. It'll certainly be in my manuscript. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 10, 2003 Author Share Posted September 10, 2003 Duane, how many dead-slide BHP's have you actually seen? And where did they crack? Or was it a matter of the locking lugs washing out? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 I wonder why we don't see more of these at steel matches? IDPA ESP? Will they hold up? Reload easily? Fast/slow slide? (I guess these questions have been covered earlier. hmmm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Flex I'll bite on the IDPA portion of your question. The 1911 is the predominate choice for ESP in either 9x19 or 38 super. I shot both the HP and the 9mm 1911 and talked to others before buying my 1911 9x19 a few years ago. The Browning is snappier than the 1911 and parts and gunsmiths are not as easy to get, were two of the main points against the HP. Since then I've also noticed that common 1911 9mms (Springfields and Nowlins) seem to be more accurate than the HP. That could be the people shooting them as well. But the HP is much easier to get to run reliably. Some people just love the HP and that is the end of the discussion, but I've seen several HP shooters switch to 1911 9's once the 1911 was proven reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 I thought that the 9mm 1911 were a bit slow with regards to slide speed? I would think a bit more snap would be faster? (Though, it may not feel as soft.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted September 11, 2003 Share Posted September 11, 2003 Flex, The slide is slower, especially compared to a lightly sprung .40 limited gun. But like you said in another thread, you can't realistically out run the gun. I usually get .18-.20 splits, and it beats me every time. Also, some of the guns are pretty lightly sprung from the factory to offset the slow slide issue. When I was playing with the recoil spring weight in my Springfield, I called Springfield and the lady told me the factory spring is 9lb for the 9mm's. This agreed with the results I got using other springs. I was told Nowlin uses a 14lb as the factory spring. I'd be curious what the new Kimber mentioned in a previous post uses. For shooting 115's I like a 14lb and for the zero 147/vv 310 load I'm shooting now I use an 11lb. That seems to be the max reliable strength, I spring my guns heavy rather than light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted September 11, 2003 Share Posted September 11, 2003 Flex I think I'll be a Rayner's this weekend and I'll be shooting my Springfield 1911 9mm, if you interested in trying it for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Duane, how many dead-slide BHP's have you actually seen? And where did they crack? Or was it a matter of the locking lugs washing out? Just curious. I've don't really know anyone personally who's put that many rounds through a Hi-Power. The only cracked slide I've ever seen myself was actually a BDM, not a Hi-Power - though the slides on the two guns are very similar, and the BDM actually was the recipient of some "beefing up" to the slide. It cracked where you'd expect, from the bottom of the ejection port down to the bottom of the slide. My reports of cracking slides come from talking to pistolsmiths like Bruce Gray and Bill Laughridge who've seen many more high mileage guns that I have. I remember reading, years ago, an article on the Scotland Yard Armory, and especially the mention of the huge drawer they have in there that's full of nothing but cracked Hi-Power slides. Also, in Great Combat Handguns by Leroy Thompson and Rene Smeets, there is a chapter where Smeets talks about his defense gun, a Browning Hi-Power through which he's poured an immense amount of ammo. If I recall correctly, the quote went something like, "I've replace the barrel once and cracked the slide three times, but the frame is still original." This was in argument that the Hi-Power, while lacking the long term durability of the 1911, is still durable enough (!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Patrick.... I tried to hurt my P35 with a 160 grain .357 bullet (my barrel slugged .357) and a case full of undisclosed powder(before V V powders like 3N37)...a case head separation... it blew the mag out of the well, and put a slight bulge in the slide... didn't pursue the challenge any further... tried the same thing with a G17... pretty much same results... case head separation, mag out of the well, but took the slide stop with it, but no damage to the Glock slide... when I called Chris Edwards at Glock.. they asked for the load data but sent me a slide stop free of charge anyway... I've been content to shoot a 1911 ever since.... but did manage to get a 124grain XTP to go 1400fps out of a G19... you need welding goggles... regards Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 Duane, It's my understanding that the British SAS were in the habit of firing factory proof loads as issue ball ammo, the "2Z" load. (A stupid approach to getting more out of a limited cartridge, but everyone is entitled to try somehting until they figure out its faults.) Thus the great frequency of cracked slides across the pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Flex The knock on BHP's are these: 1. Hard to low mount adjustable sights that can be seen easily 2. Hard to get a trigger pull with the quality of a 1911 3. Hard to flare/bevel the mag well big enough to facilitate fast changes 4. Accuracy is sometimes a factor, due to no bushing 5. Lack of easily avaliable after market parts 6. Gun weight is not neutral, light in muzzle 7. Hard to checker front strap, S/N there and thin 8. Fragile. Won't hold up to amt of rounds IPSC shooters and intense IDPA shooters will shoot 9. Tang on grip too short and too wide I'm sure there are more, but this should give you an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahauptman Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 The Hi-Power that's made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal are made using a casted slide, frame and other small parts. The elder models made in Belgium (only) are a full forged model. even the small parts are forged (hammers, triggers, sears.....) If I'm not mistaken, I think they have been making the Hi-Power in Belgium and assembled in Portugal since the mid to late 80's. This might be why you see cracking in the later made pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 The word is that the cast-frame BHP's take a heat-treat better and are consequently stronger. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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