Which Sight Picture?

[MoNsTeR]

6 o'clock hold, center hold (defined as the sight plane bisecting the target), or superimposed (front sight, esp. a dot, covering the target)? And is your preference different for a black front sight vs. a white dot or fiber optic?

I'm using to shooting a 6 o'clock hold, but I've never played any of the action pistol games and I'm wondering if that's the "wrong" way. I have to change the sights on my gun anyway so I want to do it right the first time.

[Loves2Shoot]

There is no wrong way, I prefer to put the top edge of the sight covering the spot I want to shoot when shooting limited sights. I have shot open much longer, and for me it is quicker to put the sight on the spot I want to shoot, so I don't have to change how I aim.

After using a fiber optic, I have gone back to a standard post (.09) because my I am more accurate with it, with the fiber I tend not to see the black at the top of the sight sometimes and find myself shoting over the top of plates when I kick up the speed. Removing the fiber optic fixed this immediately. For me it is easy to call the shots with the standard post, and that was worth more to me the the quick sight aquisition with the fiber, the standard post doesn't seem to be slower, but then again you have to focus harder, and I need that.

I am thinking more actual time is made up on the hard shots, so if I can do those very precisely and quickly, I will be ahead of those who can't.

[Flexmoney]

The right or wrong way depends on where you gun hits when you hold it in your "free-style" stance.

Check this out: Where to hold test (click here)

Of course, with adjustable sights, you might have some choice in the matter.

I shoot a Glock with fixed sights. It had always hit "super-imposed", with the front sight covering the point of impact. I recently put in a KKM barrel. Now my gun hits highier. I have had to adapt.

A thick front sight, that covers up the target (think plates at 25y) can be a little rough.

I have blacked out my white dot. Like L2S, I was picking it up as it came down in recoil and I was letting the shot off too soon...hitting way high (or not hitting at all).

[BerettaRacer]

I like to set mine up for center hold, that is top of sights to horizontal center line of target.

[benos]

I've always sighted my guns so they shoot "dead on." Meaning, on a perfect shot, the bullet would land perfectly centered on the front sight, with the bottom of the bullet just touching the top of the front blade.

be

[AikiDale]

I've always sighted my guns so they shoot "dead on." Meaning, on a perfect shot, the bullet would land perfectly centered on the front sight, with the bottom of the bullet just touching the top of the front blade.

be

Brian,

Since a match may involve targets anywhere from point blank to 50 yards, at which distance do you zero the gun for this perfect sight?

[benos]

With my .40, that theoretical zero occurs around 15 yards. May be an inch or so high at 25 and then a little low at 50. But since we seldom shoot at 50 (any more) and I tend to shoot a little high at 50 anyway, I feel that's a good compromise.

be

[xcount]

Just as an aside, I bought this book a few years ago and the author said he liked to have a slight undercut to the front sight. So I did that to a gun I was using at that time.

Of course, I moved on to different guns in the years since. And those with iron sights generally came with serrated front blades so I left them alone (except for narrowing them a bit).

A couple weeks ago I was looking for a gun to shoot at a local match and thought, gee, I hadn't shot that old one in quite awhile. After all, it's a 9mm Colt single stack with a single side safety and not much of a trigger job. Not real competitive these days. But, what the hell.

Funny, but the undercut appeared to be a small super-black rectangle at the top of the front sight. And shooting it kinda felt like putting on an old shoe. Even with my old eyes when I put that gun out there that sight was THERE!!!

Just thought I'd let that guy know the more things change the more some things don't. Even though the old-timer only managed to finished 2nd overall, I have to say "Thanks again, Brian".

[Luiz Francisco Ramos]

Please xcount, could you explain better about that slight undercut ??

Thanks

Ramos

[xcount]

Brian could explain this much better than I, but here goes.

All undercutting means is that the rear of the front sight post (the part you see when shooting) is cut at a slight rearward angle. Think of it as being the opposite of a slight ramp, which would be a forward angle.

This will give a perceptably darker front sight as the sunlight is not able to strike it directly. (The sight creates its own shade.)

When I did the filing on the front sight of my gun I found that I couldn't get the small triangular stone on enough of the sight to create the undercut for the entire height of the sight. So, totally by accident, I ended up with an undercut that was about the same size as the width of the post.

This gives the appearance of a small "super-black" rectangle at the top of a charcoal colored sight post. For me, it is very eye catching and allows for fairly quick and precise sight alignment.

In catching the eye, it works sort of like a fiber optic but it is at the top of the sight post rather than slightly below the top of the post. So I can see it pretty clearly (like a fiber optic) in my peripheral vision when shooting a greater speed with a visual focus on the target.

And yet, since it is at the top of the post, I don't have to adjust or look at a different part of the sight when attempting more precise shots that require a visual focus on the front sight. I simply focus more intently on the same thing I was seeing in my peripheral vision.

Hey, it works for me. May not work for other folks. But my old eyes need all the help they can get.

One thing that many people don't realize is what they see with iron sights can change a lot depending on the ambient light. The distances we currently shoot in IPSC don't challenge this much but if we start seeing more long shots a lot of people will learn this the hard way.

The point of impact at 40 or 50 yards can change vertically as much as 6 inches if thick clouds roll in. If you are shooting on a north or south oriented range your shots will "walk" across the target from morning to afternoon. If we begin to see the longer shots that Mike Voigt advocates I would advise folks in non-Open divisions to do some serious experimenting with both sun and shade on their sights.

Hope this helps, Luiz, but if you want a really understandable explanation.... ask Brian.

[Luiz Francisco Ramos]

xcount, thanks a lot !

Now I understood and I´ll try it.

I am 51 years old and have aged eyes too.

The more I pratuce I don´t reach to be precise because the sigths are presented borrow for me. (and maybe another bad habits ..?)

Thanks again!

Ramos

[mcoliver]

The point of impact at 40 or 50 yards can change vertically as much as 6 inches if thick clouds roll in. If you are shooting on a north or south oriented range your shots will "walk" across the target from morning to afternoon. If we begin to see the longer shots that Mike Voigt advocates I would advise folks in non-Open divisions to do some serious experimenting with both sun and shade on their sights.

Now I'm curious.

x, is there a site where I can do more reading on this? Or maybe a little primer if you don't mind?

Thanks.

[benos]

Yes, the importance of sharp, crisp, big, black sights, especially the front, cannot be overemphasized.

I use a small, fine, file I got from Brownell's years ago to slightly undercut all my front sights. Grind a safe edge on the part of the file that touches the slide. And if you slightly angle the safe edge, you can use that (angle) to assist you to apply the perfect slight undercut to the blade. You don't need much. And I'm always careful to NOT file the sight to too sharp of a point at the very upper tip, because that could easily snag on a drawer that you are speedily removing your pistol from during a COF. A couple times I'd whip 'er out and have a big chunk of wood on the top of my front sight, until I hit the trigger the first time of course.

[xcount]

mcoliver,

No web site that I am aware of. Some of this I learned from an old book on bullseye shooting (which I can't locate now), some from experimentation. I'll try to explain as best as I can.

First, I should say that 6 inches might have been a bit of an exaggeration but I have seen 4 inch changes in point of impact.

Here's what happens. If you have strong direct sunlight hitting the front sight and reflecting back at you, your eye will not see or "lose" part of the sight. On the other hand, if you are shooting on an overcast day or from a shaded position your eye will see all of the front sight.

So if you have sighted your gun in on an overcast day or from a shaded position and then subsequently shoot on a bright sunny day the reflected glare of sunlight off your sight, causing you to not see part of the sight, will cause you to misalign the front sight in the rear sight notch.

I'll make up some numbers to illustrate my point. Let's say your front sight is .125 inches tall. On a cloudy day you sight in your gun, aligning the top of the front sight post level with the top of the rear sight notch (& centered in the notch). You fire some groups, making adjustments to the rear sight, until your shots are impacting just at the top of the front sight post. (As Brian described earlier.)

The next day you go to the range to shoot some more groups at the same distance. Only on the next day the sky is clear and the sunlight is strong. The glare coming off the front sight will cause your eye to not see a portion of the sight. For the sake of illustration, let's say your eye loses .005 of the front sight.

You align what you perceive to be the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight. But you are actually aligning .005 too high. Which means your groups will hit high in this instance.

The converse would be sighting in on a bright day, not realizing your eye was losing .005 of the front sight. On a cloudy day, when you could clearly see the sight and align it properly - your groups would be low.

The same thing holds true for strong sunlight coming in from the side. In the early morning, with the low sun shining brightly on one side of the front sight, your eye will lose a bit of the sight on that side. Causing you to misalign the front sight in the rear notch. Causing your hits to be off to one side, the side toward the sun. Your hits will follow the sun.

This phenomenon is most noticeable with ramped front sights (because more of the sight surface is exposed to the sunlight), less so with post sights, even less so with undercut sights (because they create their own shade). Spray on sight black will help (dulling the glare) but is not a "cure-all" And it is probably not an option for those using fiber optic sights (although I have done this on occasion).

One final note. Anyone who shoots nothing but modern day IPSC can file all of the above under "Interesting, But Nothing I NEED To Know". Because at close distances the effect is negligible. But anyone shooting out to 50 yards (NRA Action, PPC, etc.) will be affected by this.

And, you never know when some course designer will test your long range accuracy. I remember a stage that had three targets at 45 yards. That was one time I sprayed sight black on a fiber optic sight.

[mcoliver]

DANG! Thanks a bunch x.

I actually fiddle with my rear sight when shooting indoors then outdoors. Noticed good groups on flourescent or slightly overcast days (w/c I just attributed to my mood for the day). Then find out the next sunny weekend that the rear sight "need" some further tweaking. Jeeez...

Again, thanks x.

[xcount]

mcoliver,

Don't thank me, thank Brian. He started the thought process. Thank Mickey Fowler, I watched him sight in a gun once while someone else held a target above the gun creating a shaded position. That furthered the thought process.

I'm just an old bagger (in the golf sense, not the shooting sense) who has picked up a few tricks and odd bits of information over the years and I like to pass them on. If they help someone - great. I hope this one helps you.

And thank Brian a second time for providing a place where information and ideas can be shared in this manner. There is a wealth of information out there, available from the old gangsters and the new guys alike, and with a repository like this one we can all benefit from it.

A good shot is something to be appreciated and enjoyed. A poor shot, especially one that is a result of a lack of information & understanding rather than a lack of skill, can be very frustrating. Perhaps to the point of turning us off to the sport. But the good shots keep us coming back for more.

When I used to play golf I would hack and flail at the ball, sending shots in every direction. Neither worms on the ground nor birds in the trees were safe when I was on the course. And often I would tell myself I ought to find something else to do with my time. But it seemed like in every round there would be one putt or one chip that left me saying "Damn!!!!". And that one shot would be enough to make me want to get right back out on the course the next day.

Maybe having this one extra club in the bag (so to speak) will be enough to keep someone in the game. If so, I will have left more of a mark on the game than a 1,000 plaques on a wall can attest to.

But, again, don't thank me. Thank the guys I stole it from.

[bountyhunter]

With my .40, that theoretical zero occurs around 15 yards. May be an inch or so high at 25 and then a little low at 50. But since we seldom shoot at 50 (any more) and I tend to shoot a little high at 50 anyway, I feel that's a good compromise.

be

For you Physics majors, it's quite possible that a gun will have two "zero on" distances due to the effects of gravity and the fact that a gun must be zeroed so the barrel bore is aimed upwards enough that the bullet's trajectory crosses the sighting line at the desired distance. The solution is actually a quadratic equation which has two roots, one of which may be in front of or behind the desired sighting distance. One gun I had would have a zero on at about 17 yards as well as 25 yards when the sights were zeroed to 25 yards. The one at 17 was as the bullet was going upward before it reached the apex of trajectory, the second at 25 was when it was headed downward.

[bountyhunter]

May be an inch or so high at 25 and then a little low at 50. be

FWIW, that means there must be another "dead on" spot somewhere between 25 and 50.

[Flexmoney]

Post (above) from xcount are fantastic.

He explains his version of the undercut front sight.

He also talks of changing light conditions (which has been brought up recently).