4.15" vs 5" barrel for shooting plates

[WyoBob]

My first post though I've been reading the forum for a couple of years.

We have a local plate shoot, 5 plates at 7 yards, that I've been a part of for several years. Great guys and a lot of fun. No IDPA or Ipsc around here, I think the closest is 110 miles away. But, I'm very happy to just shoot plates locally and that's all I'll ever do.

I've shot my Springfield 45's, a 5" SS Loaded (wt= 38 oz.)and a Champion 4" LW (wt.= 28 oz.) quite a bit but would like a 9mm to shoot so my lead supply will last twice as long. I've been shooting my CZ Compact 9mm lately and even won a match with it but the trigger guard and my middle finger knuckle don't get along and I'm getting quite a callus ahead of my knuckle which hurts when dry fire and draw practice and shooting. I shot a friend's STI Range Master in 9mm and really like the "high cut" trigger guard and high rise beaver tail grip safety. I've pretty well decided to go STI because of the great "knuckle clearance" (among other nice things).

I'm trying to decide between the Trojan (5") or the Ranger 2 (4.15"). When shooting my Springfield's, I'm much quicker out of the holster with the LW Champion and the sights are right on the plate each draw. The heavier 5" Stainless feels very nose heavy and much slower out of the holster and doesn't naturally point to the target. (BTW, I'm shooting reduced loads in the 45, 3.6 gr. of Clays behind Lyman 200 SWC's). When shooting slow fire for groups, the 5" groups a bit better (best OH 7 yard group .38") than the LW Champion (best group OH 7 yard group .65") I do shoot plates better with the 5" but don't know if it's the sight radius advantage or the heavy vs. lighter pistol. I suspect that, even with light loads, the recoil on the LW makes it harder to get back on target and that sight radius plays a lesser role.

I'm leaning towards the 4.15" barreled Ranger 2 based on my experience with the 45's. It weights 33.0 oz. which is midway between the two 45's I own and I hope would balance and point as well as my Champion. I'm not wild about the recoil master (I'm not sure how it will work with whatever reduced, accurate load I'll work up) but know that this can be changed out to a conventional guide rod that will make changing springs easy. The Ranger has a rear fixed sight but I could upgrade to an adjustable if needed. I plan on putting on a Dawson FO front sight on whatever pistol I choose.

So, I'd be interested in anyone's ideas on which pistol would be better. I live in a small town and there's no way I can "try before I buy".

Thanks, WyoBob

[G-ManBart]

Any slight amount of time you lose in the draw with the longer 5" gun will be made up with faster recovery. I'd be willing to bet that it's the longer sight radius of the 5" gun that lets you shoot plates better with it. If you want to take some weight out of a 5" gun get one set up with a GI style recoil spring guide and plug rather than a full length guide rod...just a thought. I have a Trojan for Single Stack and while I had it completely reworked, it ran and shot just fine out of the box...and I also appreciate the high cut under the trigger guard. R,

[Jman]

But, I'm very happy to just shoot plates locally and that's all I'll ever do.

Bob,

Welcome!

Around here shooting is shooting. I miss simple handgun contests like yours.

Just draw and go, what it's all about anyway.

Bigger is better IMHO. Light loads and the extra weight on a 5" = faster transitions (or make ups in my case )

Have fun!

Jim

[WyoBob]

Thanks, "Bart" and Jim for the advice. I guess, in my heart, I knew the 5" would be the best choice. Funny, I like shooting my LW better than the 5" but am more accurate with the longer barrel. I guess I can always buy a shorter barreled pistol, later

Yeah, the plates are simple compared to the other shooting sports. I've watched several videos and read quite bit about IDPA and IPSC and it looks like great fun but complicated. At age 61, I find "simple" isn't all bad. I wouldn't mind giving it a try, though, if it ever comes to our town. We do set up "torso" targets in addition to plates for a little "change of pace".

I'm very fortunate to have met and become friends with a really nice guy from Michigan who summers here and he shoots one or both: IDPA or IPSC. He shoots a Glock and is very, very good. He generally wins our shoots. I've learned quite a bit shooting with him almost every day. I'm having trouble loading enough ammunition to keep up but have improved quite a bit. Just like my fly fishing experience where I taught myself to cast by reading a book, when I moved to Wyoming, I had to un-learn some bad habits and learn how to do it right. Same way with pistol shooting.

I bought my first center fire semi-auto in 2005, a XDSC40 and started shooting plates. Not the ideal platform, that's for sure. I shot a friend's 1911 and ended up with a couple of 45's. I really enjoy shooting them but, if I'm going to practice enough to improve, I have to cast my own bullets and reload. Wheel weights are becoming hard to find and I wanted my lead supply to last, hence, the 9mm. I tried a M&P full size 9mm and, though very accurate slow fire, I'll be darned if I could run the plates worth a hoot with it. I liked the pistol quite a bit and felt it was well made and designed. I just couldn't hit the plates like I could with either of my 45's. Never did figure out the problem so I sold it.

Anyway, I've really enjoyed reading lots of posts on this forum and learn something every time I sign on.

Thanks for the advice.

WyoBob

[austinkroe]

I would say the key is to shoot what makes you comfortable, but keep your eye open for new things because you may find something you like better than what you prefer now. See if you can try other peoples guns and ee if you can learn anything from that.

I think 9 is a great idea especially for shooting plates. There is lots of good load data for 9mm minor on this site if that is the way you choose to go. However I have no experience shooting lead out of a 9 so I would advise on reading others perspectives before jumping in if you have not loaded 9 lead yet.

All of that said, I would go with a 5" because the sight radius and weight are beneficial. I do not think the recoil would be too distracting in a shorter gun but i do think it would be more difficult to be accurate and speedy with a smaller gun. In this way I agree with G-ManBart.

You mentioned buying STI guns with the recoilmaster and being worried about that. First off, don't just limit yourself to one brand of guns; look at others and see if there is something that you fancy more. Second, the recoilmaster is an easy switch if you do not like it. Also, is you are shooting 9 I would think that you would not be reducing the loads from factory specs all that much if any because you still want to take down the plates (I assume they are falling plates). I have a gun set up in 9 for IDPA esp and I load my ammo hotter than factory because I want the plates to fall (it is around 143pf). Finally, there maybe a balance in there for you. If you say you like the way the lighter weight gun feels then you should go for a lighter gun. There may be a manufacturer out there building a light weight 5" gun in 9. If that doesn't work out I am sure there are plenty of gunsmiths out there that could build you one with everything you want.

As a caveat, if you are not shooting falling plates then you may want to consider getting a .22 topend for your already existing 1911s. .22s are cheap and a new topend is much cheaper than a whole gun. Or you could practice with a .22 and save money for shooting the .45s if you like them.

Also, have you looked at shooting open? I know it is not the question you asked but STI does make a gun called the Steelmaster. However, I would not recommend shooting lead through an open gun.

[WyoBob]

See if you can try other peoples guns and see if you can learn anything from that.

That's what gave me the "hots" for a STI!

I think 9 is a great idea especially for shooting plates. There is lots of good load data for 9mm minor on this site if that is the way you choose to go. However I have no experience shooting lead out of a 9 so I would advise on reading others perspectives before jumping in if you have not loaded 9 lead yet.

I've been shooting plates with a 9mm for awhile. First with a M&P and lately with a CZ Compact. I worked up an accuracy load that was very soft shooting with a Lee 105 SWC and 3.5 gr. of W231. Best group was .40" offhand at 7 yards. This bullets shot very accurately in my M&P, as well.

You mentioned buying STI guns with the recoilmaster and being worried about that. First off, don't just limit yourself to one brand of guns; look at others and see if there is something that you fancy more.

The 5" Trojan uses a single spring and full length guide rod so no worries there. The Ranger 2 uses the Recoilmaster.

Also, is you are shooting 9 I would think that you would not be reducing the loads from factory specs all that much if any because you still want to take down the plates (I assume they are falling plates).

Yes, they're falling plates. Even with the reduced loads in my 9mm, I don't seem to have a problem knocking plates over (of course, ya gotta hit them first!). I was surprised the light load did so well. I do have a mold for a 124 gr RN if I need more bullet weight. When reloading, I always work up for the most accurate load but I guess I do need to keep an eye on power, as well. I have a top end .22 conversion (Kadet) for my CZ and shot practice plates with it. I was amazed that they knocked down plates. Kind of "slow motion" but it knocked 'em down if I did my part.

As a caveat, if you are not shooting falling plates then you may want to consider getting a .22 topend for your already existing 1911s. .22s are cheap and a new topend is much cheaper than a whole gun. Or you could practice with a .22 and save money for shooting the .45s if you like them.

I plan on researching .22 conversions a bit more. I'd be tickled if I could find one like the Kadet kit. With the Kadet, you simply remove the slide stop, slide the barrel, slide and recoil assembly off and slide the 22 conversion on and replace the slide stop. No messing around with the wrench and hex end on the guide rod that clamps down on the slide stop that came with the conversion.

I did have a Marvel Unit 2 for my 1911 and wasn't all that wild about it. The Kadet conversion for the CZ is a vastly superior design, IMO, and much more accurate. The mags are also much easier to load and the CZ with Kadet seems to shoot a wide variety of .22 brands.

Also, have you looked at shooting open? I know it is not the question you asked but STI does make a gun called the Steelmaster. However, I would not recommend shooting lead through an open gun.

Nope. We don't have that classification. Basically, we can shoot anything with iron sights at our plate shoots. (An open gun is way out of the ballpark for this retired guy, anyway ) And, I have to shoot lead that I cast myself and reload to be able to afford to shoot.

An aside: I grew up in K.C. south of the Plaza on 58th street. What a great place to be a kid. We moved to Nebraska in 1962 when I was 15. I loved K.C., especially in the fall.

Thanks for taking time to respond.

WyoBob

[Ron Ankeny]

WyoBob:

Let me guess...you are in Gillette? If so, (or if not but close) forum member John Dunn lives in Gillette and he is a fountain of shooting knowledge.

If you guys want to get started in Steel Challenge I can deliver an entire set of plates (I have a complete extra set out of 3/8 AR450) real cheap. If not, that's cool too, just come shoot with us.

[Al Capizzo]

I've been playing around with a 5" Springfield gun in .38 super, but my loads are basically identical to 9mm. I think you'll really like shooting 9mm in the full size gun. It really is a fun, soft, easy shooting combination.

[Blaster]

I would go with 4.15. I have both and the 4.15 cycles faster and at 7yds you do not need super great sight picture.Blaster

[epj]

I used to shoot plates with a 5" Kimber and a 4" Kimber in the same match. The 5" was inherently more accurate, and did not recoil as much, but the 4" ALWAYS had faster times. The 4" is an alloy frame model and it recoiled a bit more, but with the lighter mass and shorter barrel I was able to get from target to target a bit faster. I no longer have the 5", but will likely never part with the 4".

[WyoBob]

Let me guess...you are in Gillette?

Close. Buffalo.

If not, that's cool too, just come shoot with us.

But you live about a gazillion dollars of gasoline away from me

(pm sent)

WyoBob

[WyoBob]

I would go with 4.15. I have both and the 4.15 cycles faster and at 7yds you do not need super great sight picture.Blaster

You do if your nickname is "six eyes".

I used to shoot plates with a 5" Kimber and a 4" Kimber in the same match. The 5" was inherently more accurate, and did not recoil as much, but the 4" ALWAYS had faster times. The 4" is an alloy frame model and it recoiled a bit more, but with the lighter mass and shorter barrel I was able to get from target to target a bit faster. I no longer have the 5", but will likely never part with the 4".

Were the Kimber's in 45 ACP?

I have the same feeling about the SS 5" vs the 4" Champion LW 45's. I really like the LW for size as well as weight. But, even with lighter loads (we have no power factor requirements for our shoots), it seem like I just can't get back on target with the Champ. The night sights on the Champion are not the best. I blacked out the rear dots and painted the front florescent orange. Much better.

I ordered the 5" Trojan and will very possibly pick up a shorter 9mm, later. (That's been my history, anyway.) If I do that, I may have to get rid of one of my 2 45's (just to keep the CFO happy) and it will be the full size probably.

The CFO (wife) really doesn't give me any grief. She will raise one eyebrow at me on occasion and ask why I need so many guns. I bring up the "shoe thing". I tell her I could always take up the airplane hobby again. That sobers her right up! I had way more money in the panel I built on my last airplane than all of the other guns I've owned in 40 years

I appreciate all of the advice. I've learned a lot here and from my "mentor". He said the other day that I've shaved 1.0 second off on my 5 plate runs since I started shooting with him. I shoot better against the timer than I do him. When I shoot against my "guru" I seem to blow it quite a bit although I've beaten him on occasion. I really need to work on being consistent and not getting intimidated. Draw and dry fire practice help me quite a bit. I need to do more.

WyoBob

[Flexmoney]

Let me guess...you are in Gillette?

Close. Buffalo.

Which is better, Tom's or Margo's ?

[austinkroe]

An aside: I grew up in K.C. south of the Plaza on 58th street. What a great place to be a kid. We moved to Nebraska in 1962 when I was 15. I loved K.C., especially in the fall.

I live right on the west end of the Plaza on 48th street. I also worked one summer as a backpacking guide for a camp out of Hyattville WY and I used to make tons of trips to Ten Sleep from there for Ice Cream. I drove through Buffalo several times. KC is nice and all but I think I would prefer to live in WY (but then again I am only here for law school).

I hope you enjoy the Trojan you bought.

[WyoBob]

Let me guess...you are in Gillette?

Close. Buffalo.

Which is better, Tom's or Margo's ?

Tom's sold out. (Did you know his brother is the famous lawyer, Gerry Spence). Don't know about Margo's. The best place to eat: The Dash Inn and their rib dinner. Darn. Now I have to clean the drool off my keyboard!

WyoBob

[redmanfixit]

"We have a local plate shoot, 5 plates at 7 yards, that I've been a part of for several years. Great guys and a lot of fun. No IDPA or Ipsc around here, I think the closest is 110 miles away. But, I'm very happy to just shoot plates locally and that's all I'll ever do."

Oh! Sure!! "and that's all I'll ever do" It ALWAYS starts out like that!!! You'll shoot plates for awhile, then you'll see a video from You Tube of some of the USPSA stages or something like that and then you'll say to your pals " Ya know. that looks like fun". Then it's " Well I wonder if_____". Next thing you know it's every weekend, your wife wants you to go to counseling with her and you're scrounging for little bits and pieces of steel to build another prop. HA!!! " That's all I'll ever do". HA!!

John M. Browning is a GOD as far as I'm concerned!! I LOVE my 1911A1! .45ACP. That said since my theme here is, one thing leads to another, I have some 9mm pistols. 5" is wonderful for steel I have found. I lucked out and won a Springfield XD Tactical and jealousy of my wife's Hi-Power made me get a clone. I was trying to stick with my .45 for steel shooting because it is after all the one true path! Got my butt kicked by an extremely sweet, polite, cute factory shooter from GLOCK named Randy Rodgers. Holy crap she's quick!! I still love my 1911. I'm shooting a 5" 9mm much more now and for me it is faster. There are SO many nice guns to run! You're going to have fun I bet!

Hee Hee Hee!!

[chirpy]

Well, I might just throw a wrench into the works and say....don't buy a new blaster. Try to find some 152 gr.(or thereabouts) .45 bullets. They can be loaded to mouse fart vel. and are accurate.

JMHO

Richard

PS: I'd buy a new blaster if I had the $$$$$ but I'm just offering another option.

[WyoBob]

Well, redmanfixit, you write as if you've known me for years

I have my 9mm Trojan and have 6-700 rounds through it. I really like this pistol! Little recoil with the reduced loads I'm shooting. I really like the undercut trigger guard and high grip grip safety. It's very smooth and the slide is very easy to rack when compared to my Springfield 45's. I did have trouble with the factory mag (Metalform) feeding my favorite load using the Lee 105 SWC. I borrow a friend's mag (also a Metalform but with a groove down the front as opposed to the STI mag with the spacer in the rear of the mag) from his Springfield Loaded 9mm and they feed the SWC rounds 100%.

I've come close to hitting the 4.0 sec mark on several occasions and have beat my friend who's teaching me a few tricks (shoots a tricked Glock 9mm with a comp.) a few times. But, I still suffer from a "consistency" problem from run to run. The next run, I may miss a plate (or two). I have found that, if I lay off dry fire and draw practice, my times suffer.

I've been shooting just about every day. The range is only a couple of miles from my house. Then, I come home and load some more for the next day. My buddy has just about run me dry on powder and primers! But, it's been great fun learning from someone who knows what he's doing. He's heading back to MI next week so I suppose my shooting will slow down and I'll miss my shooting buddy.

Thanks for all the advice.

WyoBob

[austinkroe]

Pick up a copy of Brian's book and use it to keep learning while your friend is gone. I have read the book several times and I learn something new every time. The book is worth 1000 times its weight in ammo.

Edited October 8, 2008 by austinkroe

[WyoBob]

Pick up a copy of Brian's book and use it to keep learning while your friend is gone. I have read the book several times and I learn something new every time. The book is worth 1000 times its weight in ammo.

Brian's written several books. I imagine you are referring to "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals"?

The other day, I finally made it under the 4 sec. mark. I had quite a few runs in the 3.76 to 3.90 second range. Pretty good for this ol' guy. Draws might be a tad slow at 1.60 sec. I was feeling pretty well prepared for the shoot this Sunday but we're having snow! It will be interesting to see who shows up. We have a shack at the range with a wood stove so have a place to get warm but I don't imagine too many will show up.

Thanks,

WyoBob (born and raised in Kansas City)

[austinkroe]

Brian's written several books. I imagine you are referring to "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals"?

Yes.