Military Revolver?

[NavyDMO]

Does anyone here know of anyone that has deployed recently either with the Marines or the Army equipped with a revolver as a sidearm? I know its a longshot but I've been thinking hard about this. I'm currently deployed with the 24 MEU(SOC) in the Helmand province of Afghanistan and my issued sidearm is the as always the M9 Beretta 92F. The dust wreaks havoc on these things, especially the cheap contract magazines that must be cleaned about every other day otherwise failing to feed. Heck I would think a 327 TRR8 with four 8 round moon clips that fit inside 2 grenade pouches would be better than the 30 round 9mm combat load you are given. It could even be chambered in 9mm if we must not offend NATO/ISAF. No safety, no magazines, just pull and let her breathe her fire upon the enemy.

Actually I was surprised to find out that handguns are employed out here in combat more than previously thought. Unfortunately the only guy I saw wounded with an M9 shot himself in the foot as he ran with the cocked M9 in his right hand. He had his finger in the trigger as he tried to grab the M249 SAW that was falling off his left shoulder when the sling slipped. I wonder if the same thing would have happened with a revo with a standard double action pull. By the way the Marine is fine and fully healed now.

What are your thoughts or experiences on this?

Luis

[Waltermitty]

I do love my revolvers, but a revolver, in 45ACP, would be my second choice for a side arm.

I served at a different time in a different place, but my last issue sidearm was an M1911 A1. If I had the ability to make a choice going in today, that would still be my first choice with a bag full of the best quality 10 round mags I could buy.

The M9 mag problems are more related to the double stack design than anything else. The rounds in a double stack mag must "roll" up the sides smoothly or it will jam. If you lube with anything other than dry graphite things only get worse.

9mm hardball is not suitable on any platform in that application IMHO. If you can use modern, hign performance ammo it's a little different story.

45 ACP hardball in a single stack mag will run in a MIL Spec weapon and knock down whatever you hit. It's as simple as that.

Some of our air crews would carry 38 revolvers because they were short and light and were in "Condition One" all the time, but the 38 is still a little too light; and 357 mags will make you deaf.

That opinion and a buck might get you a cup of coffee somewhere.

[revchuck]

I must respectfully disagree with my 'steamed friend Waltermitty. The problem with the M9 mags was that some dumba$$ in Procurement decided to save a couple of bucks on mags and bought the cheapest garbage out there. Original Beretta mags work fine, and the new ones work even better. If you get one marked "Checkmate", it's only good for recycling.

AFAIK, there are no more revolvers in the inventory. If there were, they'd be S&W M10s. The Detective Special I was issued was ancient when I had it in the 80s. The ammo was 130 grain FMJ and ran about 750-800 fps - not really inspiring. A box of NATO spec WCC 95 9x19 124 grain ammo I bought at a gun show went ~1160 fps from my CZ-75B...a bit better.

I wouldn't want FMCs in combat. They bend too easily, and it's unlikely Sam would spring for mooners/demooners.

[David Sinko]

I would also choose a revolver and I feel that six rounds of moonclipped .45 ACP are preferable to eight rounds of .357 anything. But you need to remember that revolvers are also vulnerable to sand and dust and would also need a good amount of maintenance in that kind of environment.

Dave Sinko

[Pin Shooter]

Carry more Rifle rounds......

But I think that a .357 would make someone sick enough. They are normally a higher velocity cartridge, which I assume would be all the better for punching through layers of rags and towels......

Good Luck.....and hope you don't need to find out......

[hearthco]

I assume would be all the better for punching through layers of rags and towels......

Well said Mark!!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Can't resist.

M9s with original mags, or the new ones, as pointed out, work reliably. One could make an argument (and not frivolously) that the AWB-94 was the base cause of the Checkmate magazine problem.

I'd be all for re-issuing 1911s to the troops.

Better yet, a "Big boys and Big girls" philosophy. The Army has a handgun course, and a list of approved handguns. Take the course, you're now authorized to pack a handgun when you are authorized to pack a loaded weapon. Type, caliber, etc, are your choice, provided it is on the approved list.

Behave yourself or the Senior NCO will not only make yoru life miserable, but may make your career much shorter.

Go forth and dispense justice.

Not an original idea, it was what the British Army did for Officers in Queen Victoria's time.

[Waltermitty]

Can't resist.

[snip]

Not an original idea, it was what the British Army did for Officers in Queen Victoria's time.

That's about the time you started in the sport, wasn't it Pat?

(sorry, I couldn't resist either )

[20nickels]

I've seen this discussed before on another forum. It seems there are many serious regulations prohibiting this so get informed about them. That being said, I would first try to bring my own mags, lube, and ammo. 9mm ball ammo sucks, 9mm HP's are a completely dif. story. From a logistics standpoint it makes since to stick with what they have for a sidearm.

If cleared, I would prefer a Ruger design in that environment, but I would not prefer the added weight over the 327. I hope I've helped.

[NavyDMO]

Fellows,

Thanks for the input, I just wondered if I was alone in my frustration, obviously I'm not.

I do have original Beretta magazines made in Italy and they suffer the same ailment. There are some newer beretta magazines I've seen here that have a deep copper brown finish to them and are reportes as better but I can't say they are problem free.

The 24th MEU being special operations capable (SOC) I considered the .45 ACP but when I went to the armory to discuss it the reaction was pure laughter. They haven't even seen an issued .45 in years. Being field grade officer rank I took it up with the CWO5 Gunner, it took him about an hour to stop laughing.

I'm sure the revolver would also take its fair share of abuse but I strongly believe that all you'll experience is a trigger that is a little heavier and grittier but will go bang at every pull without fail.

By the way hollow point bullets here are unauthorized and strictly forbidden. I did see a Marine sniper who carried them but unfortunately, despite my best efforts to revive him he died from wound suffered. I take solace in the statistic that puts us at over 400 bad guys to the one friendly.

Hoorah!!

Luis

[hopalong]

NavyDMO,

coming from a Navy family and Medics at that let me tell you this. (father a Cheif corpsman, and Uncle a HM1)

Keep your head down, and Thanks for your service.

Knowing what little I now know about what stuff you are exposed/involved with. Unfortunately the best and most easy thing would be clean the M9 often and repeatedly.

My personal choice would be a good .45 anything but as you well know .45 is NOT the choice of ammo for handguns in our military any more.

Sorry to hear about you losing the brave Marine. You did the best you could, as did He, God bless him and his family.

Take care, Beat Army !

Hopalong

[Waltermitty]

I'm afraid I would carry what I wanted and claim it was a pickup if asked.

"You *found* a Caspian/LesBaer/Kimber TAC II *and* 4, 10 round magazines with holster and mag pouches?!?!?"

Yep. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

(Not that I have *ever* carried or used anything not authorized on my TO&E or would *ever* suggest that anyone else should)

[Model19]

Thanks for your service from me too, Luis.

In Dennis Chalker's book One Prefect OP he tells how his Seal Team used S&W revolvers for a brief period, rigging dozens of speedloaders to their gear. They figured the wheelguns would deal better with all the swimming they did, draining very quickly once out of the water. In the end the reload speed and round capacity was too much of a liability though.

You're in an opposite scenario of course, and grit is very different from water.

Bianchi makes a revolver version of the UM84 (M12 in Mil-speak) for revolvers. It's the UM84R. I have one that I occasionally carry a 4" K frame in. It works well.

Best of luck to you and make 'em keep their heads down.

Geoff

[NavyDMO]

Thanks guys, glad to serve.

Geoff, right about the book. I knew a SEAL from the SDV Team 2 in Little Creek, VA some years back (mid 90's) who was down in Puerto Rico training. I was supporting their training and went along on one of their shoots. He showed me all their weapons and claimed his favorite was a wooden gripped 6" 686 6-shot variant (I don't think the 686+ was out yet). I was quite surprised but he claimed it was popular among the SDV mini-sub crew due to their extended periods underwater. Their most popular sidearm was still the Sig P226, the HK .45 had just been introduced but for the SEALs that spent most time in the water it was the shiny 686. He told me all who went through BUDs had to qualify with it, no exceptions. I find this interesting and it goes with the logic that being familiar with all weapon systems is a wise move. In foreign soil (or even at home) you never know when you are going to have to use what you find on the ground to defend yourself if your own weapon fails.

A 125gr Federal JHP .357 mag has 96% one shot stops. The only other thing that compares is the .45 ACP Hydra Shock. Knowing this wouldn't it make more sense to carry an 8 shot 327 over a 6 shot 325?

I've seen some Army guys out here carry Glocks, the Canadians carry a Browning HiPower and the Britts carry a Sig P226. They all have similar magazine problems. I guess I'm biased given my passion for revos. Heck next time I deploy I'll figure out a way to bring my .475 Linebaugh Stainless Ruger Vaquero. I'm sure one shot stops will be at 100% and penetration through towels or sheets will be excellent. I include (shamelessly) a self portrait under typical conditions.

Luis

[Model19]

I include (shamelessly) a self portrait under typical conditions.

Luis

Hey, that's a Blackhawk holster and thigh rig, aint it!? I sell that stuff at work. I bet you like it. I sold our local guard copter medivac unit a bunch of the MOLLE adapter versions of that holster so they could carry the Beretta on their chests instead.

The only downside of the 8 shot wheelguns is a lack of speedloader availability. But that TRR8 is one sweet wheelgun.

[cas]

I was under the impression that even if you managed to get it there, you aren't going to be able to bring it back.

Edited September 7, 2008 by cas

[NavyDMO]

Model19 you are not kidding, these Blackhawk rigs are te cat's meow here. When we are inside the wire and the flak is not needed its more comfortable to wear them on the strong hip so I emailed Blackhawk and they sent me the adpter for free. Those adapters for the MOLLE are very popular as well but if you have to hit the deck face down wearing the pistol on your chest it becomes painfull and awkward.

[David Sinko]

I still find it hard to believe that a revolver is a better choice for a salt water bath. Stainless guns would still require an extraordinary amount of maintenance to perform at all. All my S&W revolvers need a lot of Loc-tite to prevent the screws from backing out even when dry firing, and how do you overcome this when the guns need so much attention? I am probably the biggest fan of revolver carry for self defense and police use, but I'd have to decline if I'm going for a long swim in the ocean. SEAL Team 6 supposedly used the Model 66 when they were in the water, and I'd really like to know what level of maintenance they needed. Of course, if I had somebody ELSE'S 66 I'd be happy to figure it out for myself.

All things considered, I'd still be happy to shoot a stage where my revolver gets dunked in mud or water, provided the Open gun next to me gets the same treatment.

Dave Sinko

[Model19]

I still find it hard to believe that a revolver is a better choice for a salt water bath. Stainless guns would still require an extraordinary amount of maintenance to perform at all. All my S&W revolvers need a lot of Loc-tite to prevent the screws from backing out even when dry firing, and how do you overcome this when the guns need so much attention? I am probably the biggest fan of revolver carry for self defense and police use, but I'd have to decline if I'm going for a long swim in the ocean. SEAL Team 6 supposedly used the Model 66 when they were in the water, and I'd really like to know what level of maintenance they needed. Of course, if I had somebody ELSE'S 66 I'd be happy to figure it out for myself.

All things considered, I'd still be happy to shoot a stage where my revolver gets dunked in mud or water, provided the Open gun next to me gets the same treatment.

Dave Sinko

I think the advantage was not so much in corrosion resistance but in the fact that water would run out of both the end of the barrel and the cylinder/forcing cone gap very quickly and the cylinder itself has little propensity to hold water, unlike a sealed bottom removeable magazine or an auto's chamber might.

I've never tried it myself, but what would a semi-auto barrel full of water and sealed at the chamber end by a round (like .45ACP that headspaces off the brass) have for pressure variables if the weapon was fired in that scenario? Might not be an issue I guess but somebody else gets to go first and see.

Other than behind the side plate and in the grip, revolvers are pretty much very porous, which might (probably?) be better for immersion and then going into action in the first few seconds it comes out of the water. At the time, those guys were really focused on scenarios involving swimming to oil platforms and the possibility of getting into the fight as soon as they started climbing out of the water.

But what do I know, I shoot at a nice clean controlled range with nobody firing back at me. I'm too old for that stuff nowadays and I have a kids college bills to pay off too.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Having shot a .45 1911 under water, I can tell you they work just fine.

[Flexmoney]

I wonder if the same thing would have happened with a revo with a standard double action pull.

Maybe not, but it's a finger issue no the less.

[JKSNIPER]

Luis,

USMC regs are toughas to what is approved for carry and ammo regs.

Your men CAN use meplat uniformers wich as a side effect DO increase the terminal ballistics on standard ball ammo.

That comes from JAG wash dc.

Also you guys could get Hornady or Black Hills AMAX rounds.

They can be justified as lowering the potential for over penetration of the .308/223 ball ammo.

In an urban combat environment the protection of innocent civilians goes over good with higher command.

And the terminal ballistics are the bomb !

Which pistol?

Spent 4 years working for USMC a while back.

THere WERE revolvers in USMC inventory when I was in (78-82).

I know this because I trained with them as well as the good old 1911 in the first USMC close combat pistol course instructor school.

Don't remember model specifics...I believe they were S&W revolvers and were 38 spl if I recall correctly.

What happened to them?

Your guess is as good as mine.

I do know a lot of pilots liked to carry them because they were not too complicated for the junior birdmen to use.

Just point and pull the trigger.

IMHO?

Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols.

Pistols are a defensive weapon best used to fight your way to a rifle which is an offensive weapon.

On raids or home searches the first guy in the stack you might want armed with a pistol if he's also carrying a shield.

Generally the shields are only rated for pistol ammo so if your bad guys are armed with Aks then the shield becomes a security blanket and not protection.

However..... most people will not shoot what they cannot see UNLESS they have been trained to do that.

SO the shield CAN provide "protection" in that the bad guy hesitates shooting to get a clear shot at your guys which then gives you time to identify and neutralize the threat.

There are ballistic shields that will stop NATO rounds but they are generally pretty heavy.

Your first man would have to go hands free to hold the shield in both paws using his cover man to do the shooting for him.

Short guy on the shield (#1) and tall guy on the MP-5 (#2) or whatever you guys use.

We train both ways and generally the best way is to have the shield guy put both paws on the shield and the cover man does the shooting for him.

Shield guy has a pistol just for the "Oh S**T!" scenario but generally he has his paws free to control the shield and help control innocent people at the scene.

Another guy in the stack should have hands free for cuffing/searching and he too should be armed with a pistol as his primary weapon.

IMHO

If they give you an option on handguns then carry a high capacity .45 like a Para-Ord LDA.

LDA gives you the trigger travel to avoid the A.D. from stress or fingers where they should not be.

JK

[Model19]

Having shot a .45 1911 under water, I can tell you they work just fine.

That must have been one hell of a match stage!!

[Waltermitty]

Having shot a .45 1911 under water, I can tell you they work just fine.

That must have been one hell of a match stage!!

Yep, Area 4 about 2003. Two clamshells were not visible above water level when set.

Shooting under water is childs play, pasting targets, now *that's* hard.

[Patrick Sweeney]

The hard part was getting used to a one-hose regulator on the scuba gear.