geezer-lock Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Well, I mean, they have to, even if its just by the absence of a hit? Would you have to count up the hits on a stage w/ disappearing targets, and see that one is missing, and assuming its a disappearing target or something? Probably a good question for Rob... The RO calls "X# No Penalty Mike" and the score keeper would note that on the score sheet. That is how you know all the targets are scored completely. The data entry folks however, don't need to do anything when they encounter an empty box or one with "NP" noted and there is nothing recorded. But I may be missing something. David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 I've got a question in to Rob on how this is going to look at the stats stations in the vendor tents, etc... The technology might help decide the answer on the NPMs for us, really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Remember, Palm scoring is being used, so I'm not sure what hardcopy detail will be available for the shooter to carry away for verification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Well, I mean, they have to, even if its just by the absence of a hit? Would you have to count up the hits on a stage w/ disappearing targets, and see that one is missing, and assuming its a disappearing target or something? Probably a good question for Rob... The RO calls "X# No Penalty Mike" and the score keeper would note that on the score sheet. That is how you know all the targets are scored completely. The data entry folks however, don't need to do anything when they encounter an empty box or one with "NP" noted and there is nothing recorded. But I may be missing something. David C Assuming a 24 round course with NPM's. If the scoring program on the website shows, 20 A, 1 B, 2 C and 1 D, there were no NPM, all hits were accounted for. If it shows 20 A and nothing else, then there were 4 NPM. If it shows 20 A and 4 M, well you get the point. It'll just require counting the hits on the stages with NPM available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 The question here is how to include the one stage where people will have NPM's? What is the basis of that stage? Is there any way that Revolver shooter (6 and reload) and Production shooters (no magwell) will be able to keep up on a timed fire stage? GM speed over B-class? I think that, in the past, the bet was on the shooting (not so much on procedures and foot faults and such) ? What are we left with? Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Mike No-Shoot (NS) No-penalty Mike (NPM) Extra Shot (XS) Did I miss anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 In the past, the penalty/bet was for shooting errors I believe. Which would give a formula of: 0 - D - M - NS = score for bet If it was fair to add in for the shots that a shooter got off on the disappearing target stage, then you could account for the the bonus hits this way (but that might reward certain equipment divisions): A + B + C - D - M - NS = score for bet (If you want to count XS, then that can easily be added into the equation. Same thing for NPM, but I would not count NPM...as it is not a penalty. Procedurals (P) could be included too.) I'd drop the stage with the disappearing targets. Having that stage will mean that not everybody has fired the same number of shots in the contest. Pulling it out makes things a bit more equal, and a heck of a lot easier to score? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 There are a total of 6 stages with disappearing targets. We should only count 13 of the 19 stages? I don't think so... I agree - I don't think NPMs should count as a penalty for the side match. One of the questions at hand, of course, is whether we can even tell if there were NPMs (without doing math) from the scoring program outputs (whether that be web or at the results stations in the vendor tents). (but that might reward certain equipment divisions) I think James has already show that this gives the advantage to Production shooters, so.... On the standards, its three strings - 4 shots, reload, 4 shots - so all platforms are on equal footing with regards to ammo in the gun and needing to reload. Obviously, revos and guns w/o big mag wells are going to be at a relative disadvantage (though, somehow I think Jerry will get all 8 shots off on each string... ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 (edited) Surely they are still going to hand out paper score sheets How else could you verify your scores when the prelims are posted? Furthermore, I love technology, but I have a back up for everything that relies on volts. Just ask Aaron Hampton If we get paper score sheets, we could just drop the score on the "targets" that disappear as opposed to dropping the entire stage. On the score sheets I have seen there is an extra block by the exact target that allows the scorekeeper to add in the NPM for total stage rounds accountability. I still say that stage 19 should be out. Edited September 4, 2008 by Unleashed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rboudrie Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Shooters will get "hit total summary stubs", however, NPMs are not itemized - they do not get you points, nor do they take points away, so they are not explicitly accounted for. Since the Palm verifies the correct number of rounds accounted in order to accept a score, there is no need for a NPM column on the stub sheet. Ditto for the competitor summary on the results stations - all totals for each box (A/B/C/D/M/PR/NS) will be shown, but there is no itemization with the total NPMs on a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Just in case you missed it... I volunteered to do the LPR since I wasn't shooting it but I would be present. I'm happy that Unleashed stepped up too, but if you'd rather concentrate on your shooting, let me know and I'd be glad to help out. Also, statements of divisions from me had nothing more to them than for which (LPR vs. O/L10) Nats. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Sharyn, I did overlook your volunteerism and I apologize for stepping on your toes!! I probably got caught up in reading all the rules debate that I passed over it. It would be great if you took this to task as I will probably be knee deep in my own problems and trying to keep track of what I will owe! So count me in to play and I'll let you have it. Thanks, Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 I volunteered to do the LPR since I wasn't shooting it but I would be present. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant, or not... I didn't want to stick you with something you didn't ask for... Also, statements of divisions from me had nothing more to them than for which (LPR vs. O/L10) Nats. Gotcha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 Shooters will get "hit total summary stubs", however, NPMs are not itemized - they do not get you points, nor do they take points away, so they are not explicitly accounted for. Since the Palm verifies the correct number of rounds accounted in order to accept a score, there is no need for a NPM column on the stub sheet.Ditto for the competitor summary on the results stations - all totals for each box (A/B/C/D/M/PR/NS) will be shown, but there is no itemization with the total NPMs on a stage. Thanks for the clarification, Rob... So - with that... I'm going to make an executive decision and say, NPMs don't count I personally don't want to sit there and add up everyone's hits, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 There are a total of 6 stages with disappearing targets. We should only count 13 of the 19 stages? I don't think so... I wasn't suggesting that you toss 6 stages. From what was posted here, I thought you had one stage in particular that was a PIA ? (sounded like timed fire - standards ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Six-Gun Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 OK, I am in for the LPR, if they leave Stage 19 out. I just think that that one will cause too many problems. As I understand it, it's $1 for Mikes and procedurals and $.50 for D's. Who do I see to give my money to or find out if we are actually playing or not. I will be at the range Sat PM hopefully to check in. Leaving for Tulsa Friday PM, and will be out of touch until I get to Tulsa. PAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Shooters will get "hit total summary stubs", however, NPMs are not itemized - they do not get you points, nor do they take points away, so they are not explicitly accounted for. Since the Palm verifies the correct number of rounds accounted in order to accept a score, there is no need for a NPM column on the stub sheet.Ditto for the competitor summary on the results stations - all totals for each box (A/B/C/D/M/PR/NS) will be shown, but there is no itemization with the total NPMs on a stage. Thanks for the clarification, Rob... So - with that... I'm going to make an executive decision and say, NPMs don't count I personally don't want to sit there and add up everyone's hits, etc... Great! That just leaves the cost of the Delta's (.50 or a buck?) and we can put this puppy to bed. David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Shooters will get "hit total summary stubs", however, NPMs are not itemized - they do not get you points, nor do they take points away, so they are not explicitly accounted for. Since the Palm verifies the correct number of rounds accounted in order to accept a score, there is no need for a NPM column on the stub sheet.Ditto for the competitor summary on the results stations - all totals for each box (A/B/C/D/M/PR/NS) will be shown, but there is no itemization with the total NPMs on a stage. Thanks for the clarification, Rob... So - with that... I'm going to make an executive decision and say, NPMs don't count I personally don't want to sit there and add up everyone's hits, etc... Great! That just leaves the cost of the Delta's (.50 or a buck?) and we can put this puppy to bed. David C I never read that in before a Buck for a miss and every thing but 0.50 $ for the Ds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 I never read that in before a Buck for a miss and every thing but 0.50 $ for the Ds Man, would you start typing English?? heh heh... I thought you'd been following along that we were trying to decide what to do w/ the cost of Ds?? Bwana... with NPMs being discarded, we are more likely to keep Stage 19, I would imagine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 I never read that in before a Buck for a miss and every thing but 0.50 $ for the Ds Man, would you start typing English?? heh heh... I thought you'd been following along that we were trying to decide what to do w/ the cost of Ds?? Bwana... with NPMs being discarded, we are more likely to keep Stage 19, I would imagine.... I have no Idea what language I should be speeking . This one with the letters all bunched up makes no sense to me. So is the question just the D cost, or is it one flat rate for all miss Pro. no shoot ? From what I read the vote is event for leaving 19 I think the match is 19 stages it should stay even if I end up paying to get a higher score. I can get all my hits on that setup but I do throw two or three D hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 I think when you do the simple math, you have to throw out 19. If you get all of your shots on target and hit 3 "D"s your down $3 but your up 3 points over the shooter that didn't even shoot the last 3 rounds, or just missed the target completely. It's either that, or you count all of the NPMs for the entire match and the shooter that has a malfunction on stage 19 accumulates at least $4 for a non-shooting related problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 I have no Idea what language I should be speeking . This one with the letters all bunched up makes no sense to me. So is the question just the D cost, or is it one flat rate for all miss Pro. no shoot ? The question is only about what Ds should cost - everything is a buck, period. From what I read the vote is event for leaving 19 I think the match is 19 stages it should stay even if I end up paying to get a higher score. I can get all my hits on that setup but I do throw two or three D hits. I can see both sides of the fence, here. One side is that the stage is part of the match, and everyone should man up and shoot it for what it is. I totally dig that, and tend to lean that way, myself. In the context of the fixed time standards, thouguh, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to penalize someone for getting points with a shot, while someone else either missed or didn't even get the shot off. You could zero the stage (all misses or shots not fired) and not put any money in the pot, or shoot 48 points (24 Deltas, assuming Major) and owe $24 (or $12, depending on the value of the Ds). So, in the end, like it or not, I'm thinking I would recommend just ignoring Stage 19 for the purposes of the side match. No, the side match just have to be logical, obviously, just consistent... But, that non sequitur just gives me the heebee jeebees for some reason... and we want this to be fun for everyone, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 No toes stepped on, everything's good. Just thought if you wanted to concentrate on the match instead... I guess this is where we stand as far as participants and that I should probably have everybodies real name and USPSA number... If your name is BOLD please provide the missing information (name and/or USPSA# and/or Nats) Dave Re A25626 O/L10 geezer-lock Ben Stoeger A54313 LPR Dave Cutts TY43888 O/L10 Fireant O/L10 boz1911 Nick Santiago A57820 LPR Jamie Foote TY18956 O/L10 Bwana Six-Gun LPR G-ManBart Shannon Smith TY38969 LPR O/L10 Sharyn TY50807 O/L10 flyingchange LPR aaronjbush12 O/L10 Unleashed LPR As far as the cost/scoring of the match... ~ Don't include NPMs at all ~ Toss stage 19 for ease of scoring ~ $1 for each D, NS, M, P, etc. (anything to the RIGHT of A, B, or C in the scoring columns ---> more money to win, right? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 (edited) If your name is BOLD please provide the missing information (name and/or USPSA# and/or Nats)G-ManBart TY23298 O/L10 Edited September 5, 2008 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 Here's the holes I think I can fill in.... geezer-lock David Cross - O/L10 Fireant O/L10 Roger Heatherly boz1911 Brian Ozment - Brian, which match are you shooting (I might've missed it in the thread...) Bwana Six-Gun LPR John DeBerry G-ManBart Chris Bartolo - Chris, are you shooting OL10? flyingchange LPR Carrie Jamrogowicz aaronjbush12 O/L10 I'd guess Aaron Bush?? Unleashed LPR Edwin Gideons It seems the $.50/D idea isn't gaining any momentum, so we'll just leave it as it was? $1 for anything right of the C on the score sheet? Toss Stage 19, NPMs don't count. I think that clears up all the details? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 Ok, rules in the first post are updated to reflect losing stage 19, $1 for everything (Ds included), add the Bail Out option, and clarify the DQ policy. Sharyn is now noted as the organizer for the LPR match, as well Please fill in any info that's missing in Sharyn's list above - we'll break it out into individual matches soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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