Production vs. SSP vs .?

[oldtrooper]

Good post Martin. The constant tweaking of the rules have played a great part in the declining numbers at the cup. It has always been explained that the motive was to attract shooters from the other handgun sports. Some have come to give it a try but more have decided to take up something else. USPSA shooters have lighter triggers on semi-autos and routinely disable grip safeties on the 1911 platform. Will they buy another handgun or modify a handgun set up for USPSA to try a new type handgun sport.

Why did John Browning put a grip safety on the 1911 and not on the Browning HP? He was competing for a contract with the US Army for a handgun for the horse cavalry. It was specified that it had to have way to attach a lanyard and a safety device that would not allow it to fire if the trooper had to drop the handgun to control his horse.

Why restrict the shooter. Give the shooter the course of fire and let the shooter use his mind and skills to seek the best way shoot the best score. If he can place the dust cover and the front of the trigger guard against the barricade with it tilted slightly so the slide won't drag, so what. If that does not work that's the penalty and he/she will try something else. If the shooter is not breaking the 180, sweeping, or getting AD's hitting mother earth within the restricted distance let them compete. The scores will determine the winner. If the revolver shooters are whipping up on the semi-autos because they can figure out how to hold it steadier against the barricade more will start trying the wheel gun.

Certainly have the classes such as open, metallic, production, and even open modified so the playing field is as level as possible but don't restrict the shooters position, and don't restrict the equipment within class. Don't restrict positions, such as prone or not prone. When that was done it caused a number of shooters that had been regulars to stop coming to the Cup. I can recall watching Ken Tapp going prone on the plates at 10 yards. He was an older guy at that time and he could still get the hits and make the time. I could never figure out why doing that was worth the pain but it that's what he wanted,so just stand back and watch.

How much real effect does having a minimum acceptable trigger pull or a requiring those grip safeties to be engaged have on safety. We are back to the safety rules, break the 180, get an AD too close in, or sweeping on the draw. Enforce these rules, which the RO's do a great job of of in a very professional manner, and the only damage will be to the berm or the target carrier.

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

Okay, you got me with the Targetmaster and the Infinity pistols. To my way of thinking, why would anyone spend $1500 minimum to shoot an otherwise Metallic class gun with a 5 pound trigger? This is why I suggested the 5 pound trigger rule. Makes me rethink my comment about not having an approved gun list.

I believe the main intent of the Production class is to give shooters the opportunity to shoot A/P cheaply as in a gun that costs less than $800. Wouldn't a novice shooter in USPSA or IDPA shooting a Production/SSP class gun easily comply with the IPSC rules?

While I was on the Committee we received a letter from a firearm manufactuer suggesting that NRA adopt the IPSC Production rules for a Production class. That's where my idea came from.

I have an out of the box stock Colt 1911 that my 6 pound trigger pull gage cannot make the hammer fall. It's more like an 8 pound pull. What kind of trigger do the stock Glocks have these days?

Wouldn't a novice shooter in USPSA or IDPA shooting a Production/SSP class gun easily comply with the IPSC rules?

No, not at all.

IPSC Production isn't USPSA Production and it's not IDPA Stock Service Pistol.

The guns used in those games aren't legal in IPSC Production in many (most?) circumstances. USA shooters are well beyond the 5lb trigger, for one.

And, you damn sure aren't going to get those shooters to come play against 6in 1911's in an accuracy game. I'm a Glock nut, but look at that group the SV shows in the picture above.

[Action Pistolero]

Okay, I give up. If I want to shoot production I'll just use a 686.

[Allgoodhits]

In OPEN gun divisions the playing field is wide open with mods, gun, barrel, sights, grips or what have you provided that certain "safety" concerns are met per the NRA Rules, and limited position flexibility at certain distances and some events.

In Metallic it is pretty much the same, except there are barrel length limits which vary for auto and revo and no comps. (Barrel length limit should be the same, maybe some day they will fix that)

In Production it will never be a level playing field, because some mass produced guns are just more desireable for what ever reason than some other mass produced guns, and some of us are just loyalist to whatever it is we shoot.

SOLUTION: Have the manufacturers pony up some bucks and some guns, and have some ammo manufactures pony up some ammo. Every shooter who wants to enter the Production contest, must shoot one of the sponsors guns and sponsors ammo. If there are more than one gun sponsor, then each shooter on the line would have a choice of which sponsor supplied gun they would shoot. This is the only way to have king of the hill production competition that is as level/fair as possible. Sorry if you shoot a CZ everyday of your life. If CZ is not one of the sponsors, you shoot a Taurus if they are a sponsor.

Each "participating" Sponsor would only have to supply enough guns for each line position to choose their brand. For each sponsor on the plates it would be a minimum 4 guns, same for practical, only 3 needed for barricade and only one needed for mover. (There should be some spares too) You could even have different sponsors for the various events, but operate under the same standard.

Another idea could be to have a sponsor for a given event. Example: GLOCK were to sponsor the Production Plates. Every Production candidate would have to shoot a sponsor provided GLOCK in that event, S&W Barricade you would have to shoot a S&W sponsor supplied gun. If GLOCK and BERETTA were co-sponsors of an event, then each sponsor would have to have enough guns on deck to supply the number of shooters who choose their ware. What a contest! I can see a sponsor saying 8 out 10 shooters choose a X-15 at Bianchi. Yet another sponsor who only had one shooter choose their ware "may be able to say" our YXB-2 won the contest. This could easily happen on a couple of the events.

This would be a Manufacturers Championship, with 100% factory guns and factory ammo. I guess even a holster sponsor would have to step up and supply enough holsters too. What an opportunity for ammo manufacturers, holster and gun manufacturers to show their support to the shooting sports. It would give shooters exposure to a fiream which maybe they never considered.

Maybe the first year the NRA may only get one sponsor, but I would think that manufacture peer pressure would force other manufactures to get involved. This would solve the issue over whether a STI Targetmaster or what ever is a Production gun. If STI supplies them and if they have enough of them for each shooter to shoot one on that relay, then the field has been leveled. On the other Hand if GLOCK provides Model 26s then that is what everyone has to shoot.

Ever heard of IROC in auto racing? This has some similarities. When I got my NRA PPC Distinguished, the ammo was issued on the line. Everyone shot the same ammo, its cost was factured into the match fee. The Production debate can end, and this problem can be fixed, but it can never be fixed if the kind of guns can not be agreed on and that is likely not to happen.

So now, if you are a hot shot shooter using an X-15 then you had better get on the phone to X-15 and encourage them to be a sponsor, so that you can shoot your favorite gun. Otherwise, quityourbitchin and shoot the match with what is provided in the Production Category by "other" sponsors, or shoot a sponsor announced gun at other times. The promotion opportunity and the pressure for the manufacturers could be huge for the shooting sports. This could migrate to IDPA and USPSA. BTW, GLOCK figured this out years ago with GSSF matches. Except they make the user buy the GLOCKS first! GSSF works and it is a good model for others to learn from. I could even once again see GLOCK, S&W, SIG and others having Factory trained service stations at the Cup tending to sponsor guns as well as personal guns of their brand. Range personnel for the sponsor event would wear some sponsor supplied garment to even more promote/advertise for the $$$ supporter. Maybe even if you "choose" at the event to shoot a X-15, then they give you an X-15 hat to wear and so on.

Marketing, promotion, the promise of fairness, fun and attendance will save the Cup. Fighting over whether my gun or your gun should or should not be labeled a production gun will only divide us.

What are you waiting for call your gun, ammo and holster manufacturer of choice now!

Martin

[Flexmoney]

SOLUTION: Have the manufacturers pony up some bucks and some guns, and have some ammo manufactures pony up some ammo. Every shooter who wants to enter the Production contest, must shoot one of the sponsors guns and sponsors ammo. If there are more than one gun sponsor, then each shooter on the line would have a choice of which sponsor supplied gun they would shoot. This is the only way to have king of the hill production competition that is as level/fair as possible. Sorry if you shoot a CZ everyday of your life. If CZ is not one of the sponsors, you shoot a Taurus if they are a sponsor.

That might be a nice theory, but is it ever going to happen?

How does it work at the local level?

Isn't the whole point here that NRA-AP is aging on the vine? AP needs new blood. New blood (in other sports) is coming from the popular "production" style guns that we see now days; Glock, XD, M&P, CZ, Beretta, Sig, HK, etc...

Do you want those shooters?

- If so, don't pit them against a 6in 1911.

- If so, allow them some basic modifications. (the market has spoken on this already...USPSA Production and IDPA are pretty close)

- If so, promote to the local clubs (many get NRA grant money already, there is the "in"). They don't need a range that runs the 50y practical and the mover. There are other AP courses of fire. (we run Los Alamitos instead of the 50y Practical)

If you really want a come all, yet level, playing field at the Cup (won't really work locally) then run the equipment division as a claimer. (any gun shot in the division is available to be claimed for a set dollar amount...$600...$800...or whatever works out).

I had a buddy that lost his harness-racing horse that way. He shouldn't have ran it 3 wide in the corners.

[NRAActionPistol]

If so, promote to the local clubs (many get NRA grant money already, there is the "in"). They don't need a range that runs the 50y practical and the mover. There are other AP courses of fire. (we run Los Alamitos instead of the 50y Practical)

For the 2009 Regional and competition schedule, we are going to awrd medals & entries to Production firearms, in the program description it will state, that you can run "ANY" of the 16 Action Pistol courses of fire during the competition. We think everyone assumes they need to have a 50 yard range & a Mover, but you are correct they do not.

We want to make it easier for everyone to compete on every level, everyone on this site is dedicated to doing the same thing. Martin and his "Virginia Gentlemen" stepped up to the plate this year, if everyone in "all" the shooting disiplines did the same, we would be trying to figure out how to NOT turn people away. From my point of view, that would be a problem I would love to try to solve.

Thank you very much for all these opinions and advice, I personally apprciate it.

Tom...

[NRAActionPistol]

All...FYI,

Mark Wills will be competing in the 30th Anniversary NRA Bianchi Cup in May 2009; he is a friend of the NRA, huge supporter of the US Military and Law Enforcement, and an all around nice guy.

NASHVILLE, TN (September 16, 2008)--Mark Wills' much anticipated new studio album, Familiar Stranger, is scheduled for release on November 4th. His first single, "The Things We Forget," is being shipped to radio on September 22nd with a music video to follow.

On the release of the new album, Wills' commented, "On this album I have a chance to show the other side of my personality. The side that rocks!! Familiar Stranger is by far the most well-rounded portrait of me ever as an artist."

An award-winning vocalist, Wills has scored eight Top 10 hits and has made a name for himself as the gifted interpreter of such tender sentiments as "Wish You Were Here" and "Don't Laugh At Me." The Academy of Country Music's Top New Male Vocalist of 1999 has staked his claim as one of country music's top male performers by carving out a niche for himself and creating his own moving renditions of such R&B love songs as "Back At One" and "Almost Doesn't Count." His hit-packed musical legacy also includes his unforgettable ballads "Places I've Never Been," "I Do (Cherish You)," and "She's In Love," as well as the seven-week #1 smash, "19 Something" (Billboard's most played country single of 2002).

Familiar Stranger marks a new chapter for the multi-platinum selling country star with newfound passion, energy, joy and abandon. "Getting this record out and sharing it with the fans is going to be a great experience," Wills gushes. "I'm looking forward to getting on the road, playing for the fans and putting this new music out there. That's all I've ever wanted to do since I picked up my first guitar."

WWW.MARKWILLS.COM

[NRAActionPistol]

All

Good Morning,

Committee Meeting went very well. I will fill you in with better details after the Minutes are completed. Here are the Basics:

No single actions, Revolvers 6 in max, Semi-Auto 5.35 max, minimum trigger 3.5 for DA/SA. Alterations' can be made if it is factory part, notch & post sights, High vis sights allowed, Carry type holsters. "Production" Category National Records, Distinguished and Classification for 2009. "Production" Category National Champion at the Cup in 2009.

Thanks for all your help.

Tom...

[Allgoodhits]

All

Good Morning,

Committee Meeting went very well. I will fill you in with better details after the Minutes are completed. Here are the Basics:

No single actions, Revolvers 6 in max, Semi-Auto 5.35 max, minimum trigger 3.5 for DA/SA. Alterations' can be made if it is factory part, notch & post sights, High vis sights allowed, Carry type holsters. "Production" Category National Records, Distinguished and Classification for 2009. "Production" Category National Champion at the Cup in 2009.

Thanks for all your help.

Tom...

Sounds great!

So 1911's not allowed and max barrel length for semi-auto not to exceed 5.35". Obviously this was done to include a specific gun, yet barrel length for revo limited to 6" when S&W made a number of "factory" revos with 6.5" barrels.

So a GLOCK must use GLOCK sights, a Sig must use Sig sights etc? ....and the same for triggers, trigger parts, barrels, grips etc?

Finally trigger pull weight must be at least 3.5 lbs for every trigger pull type?

Welcome to the NRA's Action Revolver Nationals!

Edited October 6, 2008 by Allgoodhits

[Flexmoney]

Barrels and springs ?

[NRAActionPistol]

Sounds great!

So 1911's not allowed and max barrel length for semi-auto not to exceed 5.35". Obviously this was done to include a specific gun, yet barrel length for revo limited to 6" when S&W made a number of "factory" revos with 6.5" barrels.

So a GLOCK must use GLOCK sights, a Sig must use Sig sights etc? ....and the same for triggers, trigger parts, barrels, grips etc?

Finally trigger pull weight must be at least 3.5 lbs for every trigger pull type?

Welcome to the NRA's Action Revolver Nationals!

Sight can be another, as long as it does not interfere with the orginal factory design, no Bomar type sights, fiber optic sights are allowed. Grips allowed, parts allowed, barrel must be orginal manufacturer barrel. DA/SA first round must be DA, minimal trigger is 3.5 across the board for all, DA/SA, DAO & Striker.

[Allgoodhits]

Sounds great!

So 1911's not allowed and max barrel length for semi-auto not to exceed 5.35". Obviously this was done to include a specific gun, yet barrel length for revo limited to 6" when S&W made a number of "factory" revos with 6.5" barrels.

So a GLOCK must use GLOCK sights, a Sig must use Sig sights etc? ....and the same for triggers, trigger parts, barrels, grips etc?

Finally trigger pull weight must be at least 3.5 lbs for every trigger pull type?

Welcome to the NRA's Action Revolver Nationals!

Sight can be another, as long as it does not interfere with the orginal factory design, no Bomar type sights, fiber optic sights are allowed. Grips allowed, parts allowed, barrel must be orginal manufacturer barrel. DA/SA first round must be DA, minimal trigger is 3.5 across the board for all, DA/SA, DAO & Striker.

"Sights.....as long as it does not interfere with the original factory design" What the hell does that mean? No Bomar type sights? Since Bomar only makes adjustable sights, then does that mean no aftermarket adjustable sights?

It amazes me that there was resistance to 1911's when a bunch of manufactures make 1911 firearms, then to see a 5.35" barrel length maximum which appears to have been done to only accommodate the GLOCK 34 and 35 which are what 5.32" barrels, and they are listing on the Glock website as "Competition" models. Oh well, here we go again.

Ray Chapman Nostalgia Match and no 1911's? Ray may turn over in his grave to learn that 1911's are not permitted.

MJ

Edited October 6, 2008 by Allgoodhits

[Trader]

"Carry type holsters" ? Hard to find one for a 6 inch L frame. I would look at IPSC holster rules (not USPSA) for production/revolver.

[mpolans]

Sounds great!

So 1911's not allowed and max barrel length for semi-auto not to exceed 5.35". Obviously this was done to include a specific gun, yet barrel length for revo limited to 6" when S&W made a number of "factory" revos with 6.5" barrels.

So a GLOCK must use GLOCK sights, a Sig must use Sig sights etc? ....and the same for triggers, trigger parts, barrels, grips etc?

Finally trigger pull weight must be at least 3.5 lbs for every trigger pull type?

Welcome to the NRA's Action Revolver Nationals!

Sight can be another, as long as it does not interfere with the orginal factory design, no Bomar type sights, fiber optic sights are allowed. Grips allowed, parts allowed, barrel must be orginal manufacturer barrel. DA/SA first round must be DA, minimal trigger is 3.5 across the board for all, DA/SA, DAO & Striker.

"Sights.....as long as it does not interfere with the original factory design" What the hell does that mean? No Bomar type sights? Since Bomar only makes adjustable sights, then does that mean no aftermarket adjustable sights?

It amazes me that there was resistance to 1911's when a bunch of manufactures make 1911 firearms, then to see a 5.35" barrel length maximum which appears to have been done to only accommodate the GLOCK 34 and 35 which are what 5.32" barrels, and they are listing on the Glock website as "Competition" models. Oh well, here we go again.

Ray Chapman Nostalgia Match and no 1911's? Ray may turn over in his grave to learn that 1911's are not permitted.

MJ

Martin,

There are lots of 1911s competing in Open. In fact, the match winner used a 1911. . . do they really need to be in every division?

As for the rest of the proposed rules, while I wouldn't be affected by it much (I would just have to get some crappy trigger parts to bump the pull up to 3.5lbs) I can foresee lots of folks who normally shoot USPSA and/or IDPA Production/SSP and milled their slides for Bomars being left out in the cold.

Tom,

Given that it discourages existing competitive shooters (mostly likely pool of new Bianchi Cup shooters, IMHO), what was the reasoning behind deviating from the USPSA Production and IDPA SSP rules regarding barrels, sights, and having a minimum trigger pull? Also what constitutes a "carry type" holster? Will a Blade-Tech Dropped Offset Holster (one of the most popular holsters used in USPSA Production) qualify?

FWIW, given that there are a lot more shooters shooting USPSA and IDPA rules in the U.S. than IPSC rules (virtually none), and the chance of pulling international IPSC shooters to the Bianchi Cup is relatively slim compared to existing USPSA and IDPA shooters, I'd look to the USPSA and IDPA rules for guidance over the IPSC rules.

[Allgoodhits]

Regarding the 1911 issue. If the shooters think the 1911 is the best platform to use, let them use them in every division. There are some top shooter(s) who use S&W, or is Colt because they think it is the best tool for them to use. Another uses Caspian and so on. It is not about the manufacturers, it should be about the competitors. Capitalism, free enterprise etc.

I have heard comments from some about if 1911's are permitted then everyone will use a 1911. Couldn't a similar argument be tendered against a GLOCK in SSP? If so then why not forbid GLOCK 34 from SSP? I think let the shooter decide what is best for them, as it may be a simple thing as what they have access to. Then let the manufacturers decide if they wish to develop a platform or barrel length or whatever that is most suitable for a given game.

Based now on the proposed Rules, many who shoot revolvers will have to have their triggers worked on too. That not being their 5-9 lb double action, but they have to have their single action set so as to lift 3.5 lbs. I know of no one, ever, who shot a .45 DA/SA revolver which would require at least 3.5 lbs SA per NRA BE Rules. Revos less than .45 could have a 2.5 lb SA pull as most did. Now they have to have that modified to lift 3.5 lb SA. I have a 1978 vintage S&W K-38 or Model 14 which I use to shoot my first BC in 1981. I used the same gun to get my NRA PPC Distinguished in 1980, and I used the same gun to recently win a NRA Bullseye Distinguished Revolver match with a 271. Now, I have to have the trigger messed with for it to be a Production legal gun, when every shot of the BC COF will be fired DA with a pull of about 7.5 lbs. In fact I know of no one who shoots a revolver who shoots any of BC COF SA.

I am clueless on what they had in mind with the sight issue, and the reason behind it. Perhaps explanation will come later. I am not a fan of lists of guns to be elligible, but perhaps that may have proven to be a viable alternative to a 5.35" auto barrel, but a 6" revo barrel.

Maybe a "service" type approach may have been better. Maximum barrel length 5", no external modifications, must use barrel that was made for the gun by the gun manufacturer, must use grips made for the gun by the manufacturer, no magazine or magwell or grip extensions in addition to the factory type grips which extend for than 1/2 " below the grip frame, first shot trigger pull weight must be at least 5 lbs. There should be no restriction on holsters any different from normal NRA BC holster Rules.

The reason I think 1911 should be permitted in this production or service or wahatever category are several. One, many people already have one or have access to one. It is the only platform that I can think of that at least a half dozen or so "different" gun manufacturers make a firearm based on the 1911 design. Two, if some one later wants to build an open gun, then the 1911 has proven to be the platform of choice. Three, the 1911 with a 4 or 5 lb trigger has no competitive advantage over some of the other excellent platforms out there for purposes of NRA AP, if the gun can not have extensive mods. In fact, given an out of the box, stock or production criteria, the 1911 is likely NOT the best choice, but it should not be discluded if that is what the shooter wants to use.

MJ

[Flexmoney]

MJ,

What is the difference between Metallic and Production?

Metallic seems to be the place for the line of thinking that you are championing.

Again...what am I missing?

I don't know what the goal of a Production division is for NRA-AP.

I do know that our local USPSA match and our local IDPA match each pull more shooters...in their their respective plastic gun divisions ...than all guns combined in our local NRA-AP match.

[Flexmoney]

Tom,

Given that it discourages existing competitive shooters (mostly likely pool of new Bianchi Cup shooters, IMHO), what was the reasoning behind deviating from the USPSA Production and IDPA SSP rules regarding barrels, sights, and having a minimum trigger pull? Also what constitutes a "carry type" holster? Will a Blade-Tech Dropped Offset Holster (one of the most popular holsters used in USPSA Production) qualify?

FWIW, given that there are a lot more shooters shooting USPSA and IDPA rules in the U.S. than IPSC rules (virtually none), and the chance of pulling international IPSC shooters to the Bianchi Cup is relatively slim compared to existing USPSA and IDPA shooters, I'd look to the USPSA and IDPA rules for guidance over the IPSC rules.

I wonder the same. If the goal is to pull in the USPSA and IDPA shooters, then that is what the rules for the division ought to mimic.

[NRAActionPistol]

Tom,

Given that it discourages existing competitive shooters (mostly likely pool of new Bianchi Cup shooters, IMHO), what was the reasoning behind deviating from the USPSA Production and IDPA SSP rules regarding barrels, sights, and having a minimum trigger pull? Also what constitutes a "carry type" holster? Will a Blade-Tech Dropped Offset Holster (one of the most popular holsters used in USPSA Production) qualify?

FWIW, given that there are a lot more shooters shooting USPSA and IDPA rules in the U.S. than IPSC rules (virtually none), and the chance of pulling international IPSC shooters to the Bianchi Cup is relatively slim compared to existing USPSA and IDPA shooters, I'd look to the USPSA and IDPA rules for guidance over the IPSC rules.

The Committee weighed all the rules from USPSA, IDPA, IPSC and NRA Action, NRA Pistol & NRA Police Pistol. This is not an USPSA, IPSC or IDPA Sport, we do not want to mirror them, but use them as a guideline. The NRA "Production" Divison, is just that, it's not Metallic, it's not Open, it's "Production" no alterations to the Firearm, unless it is available from the manufacturer, by the manufacturer.

Our goal is not nessesarily to attract USPSA, IPSC & IDPA Shooters, if it happens, great, our goal is to give everyone a chance to compete in their own Division, for minimum costs with out of the box guns, with no Race type equipment. That is what Open & Metallic are for. If a new shooter comes in, and wants to move into Open & Metallic, great. The exact wording for holsters in the Rule book will be: "Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use" Race type Holsters are Prohibited. So the answer to your question is yes.

All we can do together, is try to make NRA Action Shooting better for all, not one Person, Group or Division. After the committee has approved my minutes, I will display the entire 3.2.1 rule.

Lastly, I am not a text person so I do not know what IMHO & FWIW mean.

Tom...

[NRAActionPistol]

MJ,

What is the difference between Metallic and Production?

Metallic seems to be the place for the line of thinking that you are championing.

Again...what am I missing?

We agree, how many Divisions do 1911 competitors need? A Sig, Glock, Smith & Springfield and others, were left out, we are trying to let them back in.

[Griz]

I think it's sad that all of the "modern" guns are so inferior to the 1911 that their users are afraid to compete against a bone-stock out of the box 1911...

[Allgoodhits]

MJ,

What is the difference between Metallic and Production?

Metallic seems to be the place for the line of thinking that you are championing.

Again...what am I missing?

I don't know what the goal of a Production division is for NRA-AP.

I do know that our local USPSA match and our local IDPA match each pull more shooters...in their their respective plastic gun divisions ...than all guns combined in our local NRA-AP match.

Flex,

Metallic permits major modifications to any type gun or any manufacture that one wants to shoot limited to 8 3/8" barrel if revolver and 6 1/4" if semi auto. No compensator and no scope and trigger pull not less than 2 lbs. and front sight can not extend beyond muzzle. Metallic, like Open are inclusionary of just about any firearm that one wants to use. [ Don't ask why barrel length is not the same for both. ]

Production does not allow single action guns, I presume that single action guns would exclude "cowboy" guns too in Production. Production apparently limits barrel length to 5.35" semi auto and 6" if revolver. There will be some further restrictions on mods, parts etc, sights, holsters and trigger pull minumum be at least 3.5 lb. Production is exclusionary to certain factory produced, stock, unmodified production firearm styles or brands. Call it Discrimination of a sort. [ Don't ask why barrel length is not the same for both]

I would think that Production should be inclusive, not exclusive of any stock or production firearm that one chose to use provided that it could meet the basic criteria of caliber, trigger pull weight and barrel length. I think Bob Munden once shot a single action army at the Cup. Now, he can only do that in open or metallic, not Production, because the gun would provide the shooter a competitive advantage with such a firearm over Berettas, Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks etc. I guess this does make sense, because afterall the Colt Peacemaker SAA is the gun that won the west, and Wyatt Earp would have to shoot Metallic too.

Out.

Martin

Edited October 8, 2008 by Allgoodhits

[Allgoodhits]

I think it's sad that all of the "modern" guns are so inferior to the 1911 that their users are afraid to compete against a bone-stock out of the box 1911...

Now, now the Luger would not be permitted either, nor would a Browning Hi-Power. I guess they just don't make them like they used to. Hmmm, I wonder what a H&K P7 would be?

[KMacari]

I find it hard to believe that there are already 70+ posts on this topic. It really seems to me that people are making this issue into something much bigger and far more complicated than it needs to be. My understanding is that the intent of the production division is to help attract new shooters to NRA Action Pistol, regardless of what type of shooting background and equipment they have. The production division would permit someone with an off the shelf firearm to compete without having to necessarily compete against the folks with highly modified open and ‘stock’ guns.

It’s so simple that its frustrating reading though the posts on this topic…production should be exactly that…production. Out of the box, no modifications, right from the store, same firearm as everyone else has access to. Once you start making modifications to a firearm (barrel, trigger, sights, etc), then there’s a division for you…it’s called ‘Metallic’. Chances are that people from other shooting disciplines with modified ‘production’ firearms will be able to compete comfortably and competitively in the Metallic division.

Regarding the 1911 comments…they belong in the metallic sight division…period. Add an optic to it….open or open modified division….period. This is pretty much the same way it’s been for years. If you want to shoot in the production division, go to you local retailer and buy a Glock, M&P, XD, Sig, or whatever similar type firearm and don’t modify it. If you feel the urge to make modifications, well, welcome to the Metallic sight division. Again, this just seems so simple.

I’m tired of listening to the experienced shooters out there complaining that the new production division rules seem to be discriminating against them and their existing firearms. As I mentioned, I believe that the production division is intended to draw in new shooters, not provide a new division for existing shooters to try and dominate (and ultimately scare off new shooters that this sport desperately needs). Creation of this division is not meant to be an opportunity to try and get your name into the record books a few more times.

I think what Tom and the Action Pistol committee have recently decided is right on the money. This will help new shooters compete comfortably without feeling like they have to play the ‘firearm modification game’ just to try and compete. New shooters interested in trying out NRA Action Pistol (and by the way, there is MUCH MORE to AP than just the Bianchi Cup) can shoot their Glocks, Springfields, S&W’s, Sigs, etc. in their own category without having to compete directly against folks with highly modified firearms.

Ken

[NRAActionPistol]

I think what Tom and the Action Pistol committee have recently decided is right on the money. This will help new shooters compete comfortably without feeling like they have to play the ‘firearm modification game’ just to try and compete. New shooters interested in trying out NRA Action Pistol (and by the way, there is MUCH MORE to AP than just the Bianchi Cup) can shoot their Glocks, Springfields, S&W’s, Sigs, etc. in their own category without having to compete directly against folks with highly modified firearms.

Ken

Ken,

Thank you, NRA Action Pistol started way before I did, with no "Grass Roots" this is the only way, that (WE) can try to increase the amount of shooters, and you are so right, there is so much more Action Pistol then just the Bianchi Cup.

Production will have new National Records, Distinguished and Classification, these are all for outside of the Bianchi Cup. Nothing or No one will ever be perfect, not in my life time, but something needed to be changed, we asked for advice from many, not one person or group. We had to draw a line in the sand, and I am glad you are on our side.

This is for the good of many not a few, and personally I am a team player, I do what I think is best for the Team, not for ME!

Thanks for your support!

Tom..

[Allgoodhits]

Tom,

As always I will do whatever I can to promote the NRA AP Program and the Bianchi Cup. And for the record, I do not own a 1911 that would be eligible for Production, even if 1911's were permitted. One a 5" is built on a Caspian frame, and the other a 6" STI. Neither eligible for different reasons other than being a 1911. So my advocacy for the 1911 was not for my use in Production. I'd shoot a revo, or Glock 34, if inclined, under the proposed rules, although a SIG X-5 may be a candidate.

On a much more important note, since I think there is probably only one Registered AP Match before the Cup, then the chance for someone to hoard National Records, as suggested, is slim. My guess is that once the TEAM SPONSORED Production guys show at Bianchi, then those chances will go by the wayside for the "average Joe or Jane" shooter whom we are trying to attrack who walked into a gunstore, and purchased a factory X-15 and a case or two of ammo and 4 or 8 magazines or loaders etc and spent a week in Missouri to shoot the Cup.

Therefore, it is likely that as structured the current Production Rules will create a Dynasty shooter, and if it occurs, that would not be good for the game. This would be akin to Doug and Bruce present and shooting OPEN, then for what a decade or more everyone else is shooting for at best 3rd. With Carl, that has become at best 4th. Will Kevin now make everyone else shooting for 5th and so on. The best shooters are the best shooters, and they will likely win no matter what the Rules, no matter what the gun.

I absolutely agree that Production is a good idea, and opening Production up for a Distinguished Program is huge, as it will afford an achievement which is obtainable by many good shooters. I 100% agree with Ken's point that Production = Out of the box stock, that however will not happen, unless the guns are supplied at the match by the event operator. Perhaps some day that may happen.

Winning the Cup is an achievement that is highly coveted and immensely ellusive by even the best shooters on the planet, and likely obtainable by only 5 or fewer shooters at any given time. I don't know the exact answer, but in thirty years there have only been what 10 - 12 different winners, and at least 3 of them are still in the hunt. The odds aren't good for the rest of us, but we all have our individual goals that are achievable, yet ellusive too.

I hope that the plan as structured works, but I also hope that it doesn't create the scenario as mentioned above. Only time will tell.

Regards,

MJ

P.S. Now let's work on getting some guns donated by various DA/SA or Striker type gun manufactures as awards to the shooter's who shoot their BRAND at the Cup. Maybe if you had an approximate count of how many were going to shoot Production Glocks, Sigs, S&W, H&Ks etc. you get get some guns from those manufacturers. Especially, after you tell manufacture B that manufacture C has donated a gun.