Production vs. SSP vs .?

[Allgoodhits]

I am trying to wade through the soup on whether a barrel replacement with other than manufactures barrel is legal under USPSA vs. IDPA vs. NRA Action Pistol Rules. Same barrel configuration and same caliber of course.

I guess looking at the question differently is a barrel of a semi-auto pistol an external modification? Is it different for an exposed barrel like a Beretta 92 as compared to a 1911?

My thoughts which may be flawed are as follows.

USPSA - PRODUCTION you can not change barrel with aftermarket barrel.

IDPA - SSP you can change barrel with aftermarket barrel

NRA Action Pistol - Metallic -yes. Production - ? Other NRA shooting programs permit barrel change under EIC rules for ball matches. How about NRA AP?

Anyone with knowledge/evidence on the NRA topic?

Martin

[Flexmoney]

USPSA Production - You CAN change to an after-market barrel...of like kind (or words to that effect).

[NRAActionPistol]

I am interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this topic, this is one of the things that we will be looking at during the next Committee meeting.

2009 is shaping up to be quite the event, we have 3 of the 5 events taken already.

Thanks for all you do for this sport.

Tom...

I am trying to wade through the soup on whether a barrel replacement with other than manufactures barrel is legal under USPSA vs. IDPA vs. NRA Action Pistol Rules. Same barrel configuration and same caliber of course.

I guess looking at the question differently is a barrel of a semi-auto pistol an external modification? Is it different for an exposed barrel like a Beretta 92 as compared to a 1911?

My thoughts which may be flawed are as follows.

USPSA - PRODUCTION you can not change barrel with aftermarket barrel.

IDPA - SSP you can change barrel with aftermarket barrel

NRA Action Pistol - Metallic -yes. Production - ? Other NRA shooting programs permit barrel change under EIC rules for ball matches. How about NRA AP?

Anyone with knowledge/evidence on the NRA topic?

Martin

[mpolans]

If NRA is thinking of tweaking the rules for Production, I would suggest modeling them after USPSA Production and IDPA SSP. This would make it easier for folks to give the Bianchi Cup a try with an existing competition gun.

[Flexmoney]

1

[Allgoodhits]

If NRA is thinking of tweaking the rules for Production, I would suggest modeling them after USPSA Production and IDPA SSP. This would make it easier for folks to give the Bianchi Cup a try with an existing competition gun.

So, can you change the barrel or not in USPSA Production and IDPA SSP? Is a barrel change an internal or external modification with a semi-auto? How about when using a revolver? Obviously SSP would not be a revo, but the bases for the question is as it applies to NRA AP Production.

Martin

[Flexmoney]

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf

That is the link to the USPSA rule book.

The criteria for Production division is found in APPENDIX D4 at the rear of the book [p. 74 (80 of 105)].

As I stated in the first reply to your opening post, you can change barrels in USPSA Production.

I'm not an IDPA shooter, but their rule book can be found on their website.

OK...I took a look. IDPA SSP also allows for a barrel swap.

Both allow for internal trigger work.

[Allgoodhits]

Thanks Flex.

It appears that the interpretation of external modification as it pertains to semi auto barrels and triggers may be the big question as it pertains to NRA AP. A barrel change on a revo is clearly an external mod, but is it on a 1911? Is it on a Beretta 92?

I seem to recall, but may be mistaken, that back when Ernie Langdon was shooting Berettas that his "speed bump" trigger was interpreted as IDPA SSP legal, but not USPSA Production legal. I thought likewise on the barrel issue, perhaps I am just wrong or it changed in the past 6-7 years or so. I seemed to recall that there were some subtle differences between IDPA SSP and USPSA Production, perhaps they are now in synch. BTW, the speed bump trigger was simply a non adjustable overtravel stop for the Beretta 92.

The next question is how will NRA interpret a barrel change for Production. Will a barrel change be a prohibited external mod? Will it be the same for revolver production as it will be for DA or SA semi auto Production? USPSA and IDPA can more easily differentiate between revos and semi auto as they are different divisions. NRA AP they are all rolled into the same divsion as a sub category of Metallic, and not recognized except at Bianchi Cup.

My guess is that some changes are coming in NRA AP. Based on the competitor meeting at BC, it appears that there will be the Championship Match as we now know the BC. It will have two divisions. Open and Metallic. It will be the four 48 shot events for a 1920.

There is talk of another opportunity for people to shoot Production guns in a "short course" that will be seperate from the Championship Match. Those competitors will not include those who have previously shot the BC. They will be new shooters shooting production guns over a short course. If I undrstood correctly, the new shooters may shoot the Championship Match, but the old timers can not shoot the "short course" Production match. My "guess" is that NRA AP Production rules will change once again and they will trully be "out of the box" firearms and may even be sponsor supplied firearms.

It would be nice if USPSA, IDPA and NRA could conspire to synchronize their RULE language so that parallel mods, if permitted, would also comply with the other sport provided we are talking about similar divisions. That may be too cumbersome, but it seems like it could be done.

Thanks for the info.

Martin

[Flexmoney]

Barrel swaps have always been allowed.

External stuff (like the Speed Bump) has never been allowed in USPSA Production.

Vaneks top trigger, where he moves the trigger pin location (external) isn't allowed in USPSA Production, but I think it is in IDPA SSP. (?)

Other than that, Prod. and SSP are pretty close. IDPA requires the use of a stock recoil rod, but you can change the spring. Prod allow different recoil rods (steel...tungsten), as long as the weight of the gun does go 2oz over stock.

There are some slight differences in the holsters, but the Par times make that a non-issue (in my mind).

I don't know why Production shooters would need a short course.

[Allgoodhits]

Barrel swaps have always been allowed.

External stuff (like the Speed Bump) has never been allowed in USPSA Production.

Vaneks top trigger, where he moves the trigger pin location (external) isn't allowed in USPSA Production, but I think it is in IDPA SSP. (?)

Other than that, Prod. and SSP are pretty close. IDPA requires the use of a stock recoil rod, but you can change the spring. Prod allow different recoil rods (steel...tungsten), as long as the weight of the gun does go 2oz over stock.

There are some slight differences in the holsters, but the Par times make that a non-issue (in my mind).

I don't know why Production shooters would need a short course.

Again thanks for the clarifications. The NRA AP "thought" on a short course for new shooters and Production guns is to attrack entry level shooters and firearm manufacture sponsors. Personally I don't see a new shooter taking a week off of work to go to MO to shoot a pistol match. Newcomer or First-timer is much different than New Shooter. Many Newcomers are far from new shooters, thus not shooting out of the box guns anyway.

Additonally, many feel that shooting an out of the box metallic sight gun is too big of a handicap in NRA AP, thus don't bother. Certainly any number of revolvers and some semi-autos are sufficient for Metallic. Afterall we only have 12 shots at 50 yds and 12 shots at 35 yds, all other shots are 25 yds or less. Regardless, we all want the best equipment and ammo possible when playing in whatever division we choose. The pursuit of the competitive advantage via the equipment race.

The NRA has not made public and possibly not decided exactly what they will do. I feel certain that whatever they will come up with will involve firearm manufacture support, as that is something that has been lacking, since no manufacture has stacked any claim to making guns suitable for BC, whereas GLOCK, S&W and others have made guns somewhat specific for other disciplines. We will see.

Later,

MJ

[Flexmoney]

I shoot a Glock.

I wouldn't shoot dumbed-down stages.

[BigDave]

If NRA is thinking of tweaking the rules for Production, I would suggest modeling them after USPSA Production and IDPA SSP. This would make it easier for folks to give the Bianchi Cup a try with an existing competition gun.

+2 It should be as easy as "bring the same rig you use to shoot USPSA Production and/or IDPA SSP and play our game." End of discussion.

[mpolans]

I'm hoping NRA decides to mimic USPSA Production rules, since all IDPA SSP guns will fit under USPSA Production, but not all USPSA Production guns will fit under IDPA SSP without swapping out parts.

[NRAActionPistol]

I'm hoping NRA decides to mimic USPSA Production rules, since all IDPA SSP guns will fit under USPSA Production, but not all USPSA Production guns will fit under IDPA SSP without swapping out parts.

All,

We are going to have the Committee Meeting on Saturday 4 October 2008, we are all going to sit down and discuss the options and pick as a team the best way to run "Production" guns at the Bianchi Cup and in the NRA Action Pistol sport.

We are going to intruduce a "Production" Championship Category for the 2009 30th Anniversary NRA Bianchi Cup, so we will have an overall Champion, a Metallic Champion & a "Production" Champion! This includes prizes & awards as well as shooting the Bianchi Speed Event.

Come one, come all, "Production" will still be only $250.00, and it will also have the majority of the awards. This year we awarded (2) Cups, in 2009 there will be (3) Cups awarded.

For the 30th Anniversary, who will be the 1st NRA Bianchi Cup "Production" Champion?

Tom...

[Flexmoney]

The NRA AP "thought" on a short course for new shooters and Production guns is to attrack entry level shooters and firearm manufacture sponsors. Personally I don't see a new shooter taking a week off of work to go to MO to shoot a pistol match. Newcomer or First-timer is much different than New Shooter. Many Newcomers are far from new shooters, thus not shooting out of the box guns anyway.

Your right. That idea misses the mark.

Newbie shooters aren't going to pop into the BC foir their first match. It they happen to have a local match to shoot at in their home area, well, the local match isn't going to want to setup (or score) differently than they do for everybody else.

After all we only have 12 shots at 50 yds and 12 shots at 35 yds, all other shots are 25 yds or less.

Right. Experienced shooters that happen to shoot Production type guns (who, damn sure aren't entry-level shooters) won't want to see shortened courses of fire. We shoot 50y in USPSA/IPSC with our Production guns. I usually go back to 35 or 40y to work the plate rack, because that is how far back I need to go to make it challenging with my stock Glock. Bring on the regular courses of fire. If we shoot some 8's and a few 5's...so be it.

[Flexmoney]

For the 30th Anniversary, who will be the 1st NRA Bianchi Cup "Production" Champion?

Money would be on Doug...shooting a S&W "Performance Center" gun. Question is...will that same gun be readily available for every shooter?

I'd think long and hard how you work the rules for a Production division. It can get gamey real fast (already has in USPSA and IDPA).

[NRAActionPistol]

Money would be on Doug...shooting a S&W "Performance Center" gun. Question is...will that same gun be readily available for every shooter?

You can only sign up in (1) one Championship category, open, metallic or production, this is to separate all the Championship categories. We may some time in the future, make the Championship an Aggregate to win the "Overall" Championship. One step at a time.

I'd think long and hard how you work the rules for a Production division. It can get gamey real fast (already has in USPSA and IDPA).

We are all meeting here at HQ, all the members have signed up to attend, we have a lot of experience on the Committee, with the good of the Sport in mind. All these changes and additions are competitor & sponsor driven, thank you for all your advice & suggestions. This is not a one person job!

Tom...

[mpolans]

Money would be on Doug...shooting a S&W "Performance Center" gun. Question is...will that same gun be readily available for every shooter?

You can only sign up in (1) one Championship category, open, metallic or production, this is to separate all the Championship categories. We may some time in the future, make the Championship an Aggregate to win the "Overall" Championship. One step at a time.

I'd think long and hard how you work the rules for a Production division. It can get gamey real fast (already has in USPSA and IDPA).

We are all meeting here at HQ, all the members have signed up to attend, we have a lot of experience on the Committee, with the good of the Sport in mind. All these changes and additions are competitor & sponsor driven, thank you for all your advice & suggestions. This is not a one person job!

Tom...

Keep in mind, if you write your Production division rules stricter than the USPSA and IDPA rules, you might exclude a lot of would-be Production shooters who would crossover. If I were going to be back in town in time for the match, I would want to shoot my USPSA production gun (Glock 35).

[NRAActionPistol]

Keep in mind, if you write your Production division rules stricter than the USPSA and IDPA rules, you might exclude a lot of would-be Production shooters who would crossover. If I were going to be back in town in time for the match, I would want to shoot my USPSA production gun (Glock 35).

Thanks, for the advice, stricter in what way? Right now the Production rule is pretty vague, we do not plan to copy the USPSA Rule exactly, but plan on using it as a guide.

Tom...

[Allgoodhits]

Keep in mind, if you write your Production division rules stricter than the USPSA and IDPA rules, you might exclude a lot of would-be Production shooters who would crossover. If I were going to be back in town in time for the match, I would want to shoot my USPSA production gun (Glock 35).

Thanks, for the advice, stricter in what way? Right now the Production rule is pretty vague, we do not plan to copy the USPSA Rule exactly, but plan on using it as a guide.

Tom...

Tom,

I have sent you an email with an attachment. Too lengthy for post here.

Good luck,

MJ

[NRAActionPistol]

I have sent you an email with an attachment. Too lengthy for post here.

Good luck,

MJ

Martin,

Thank you very much, I think you are right on & we are on the same page. It is good to have some written documentation to back up all of our thoughts to make this sport better.

Your email will be added to the documents proposed at the Committee Meeting 4 Oct 2009.

Tom...

[B.J. Norris]

As somebody who will likely shoot their first BC in the Production match in 09, the big points for me are: Aftermarket barrels, aftermarket sights and very little to no trigger work restrictions. Not many production style guns are meant to be shot at 4" targets at 25+ yards, and these are the first three things that are likely to be changed.

Edited September 22, 2008 by B.J. Norris

[Flexmoney]

Production guns win at our local NRA-AP match.

We don't have a 50y pistol bay, so we shoot "Los Alamitos" instead of the 50y Practical. Our mover is 24 shots at 7, 15 & 25y

We, basically, run two divisions...Open and Stock.

(For reference here are descriptions of our local match http://www.pcsirange.com/html/Division-AP.html )

Our USPSA legal Production guns shoot right in with the custom 1911's...and win.

I win with my Glock. Steve Anderson wins with his Springfield XD. Steve Moneypenny shot the match while visiting one time. Moneypenny likely would have won with his Tanfoglio...had they taught him how to count in school (he ran dry on during a run on the barricade event...hehe).

Granted, all three of us are Production Grand Masters. And, if an AP specialist were to show up, then that person would likely put us in our place.

About the guns:

- my Glock: I've shot with a G17 (standard sized 9mm), G34 (call that the 5in 9mm) and a G35 (5in 40S&W). My mods from bone stock consist of grip tape, drop in fixed sights, and home based trigger cleanup.

- Anderson's XD: If I recall correctly, he runs a 5in model in 9mm. Barsto barrel, grip tape, trigger work by a professional smith (VERY 1911 like), and Bomar sights that are installed in the milled slide. Oh...I believe the slide has had a bit of weight taken out internally...to allow for function at the reduced power factors we are talking about.

- Moneypenny's Tanfoglio: Unlike my Glock and Anderson's XD...the Tanfoglio would operate as a true traditional DA gun for the first shot in USPSA Production. I don't know how he ran the gun at our local AP match. Thinking on it, we were in "stock" division with the 1911's...so, if his gun could run cocked and locked, then he could have choose to run it that way and fire his first shot single-action.

I know that one big name company had a run of guns that somehow got approved for USPSA Production...when they maybe should not have. They were a longer version of a popular gun, but they were a different model...and they were "built" by the performance center. Fantastic triggers, great weight (stability). Hand fit all around. Seemed like those were more built for the "team". I couldn't call in and get one. (Which is pretty much THE reason that USPSA Production has a 2,000 guns produced clause and a "readily available to the general public" clause...to ensure that factory team members don't get better toys than the folks on the street can get.)

[Flexmoney]

Not many production style guns are meant to be shot at 4" targets at 25+ yards...

I don't see that as much of an issue, if the info below is still correct?

*The NRA D1 target is basically a rectangle with a rounded top 18 inches wide by 30 inches tall. It has a 4 inch diameter X-ring (10 points), a 8 inch diameter 10-ring and a 12 inch diameter 8-ring. Hits outside of the 8-ring score 5 points. NRA Action Pistol rule books are available for purchase.

With 8 & 12 inch rings, it's still about the shooting.

Even our new guys don't get upset with the target being too hard. If they miss a target that is 18in wide...they know they've earned the miss.

[Flexmoney]

BJ is right on though. Sights, barrels and trigger work are the key questions. (Maybe add on weight?)

I don't know what the NRA has in mind as a goal here???? (pure competition vs. industry support vs. ???))

Is it a "street gun/duty gun" focus? If so, the cat my be well out of the bag on that one. These guns are everywhere, and tweaks and improvements on them abound.

Then again, Glock does pretty well with their GSSF matches...which are mostly STOCK guns (granted, they do have an unlimited division).

And on the (other ) flip side, when I think of NRA-AP, I think of pushing the envelope on accuracy. So, I think it might be neat to allow some lee-way to the Production guns. I'll bet that the customers that would be attracted to NRA-AP would think so too?

I'd love to see what improvements could be made to maximize accuracy on these guns.