40 S&W mags vs. 10 mm

[RUSHARP2]

Ok I need some help (more help that is.. thanks for everything so far). I when I picked up my Match, it came with 4 factory mags. I recently picked up one of Hennings USPSA 140 (20+1), then I decided to upgrade 2 of the factory mags with the Grams kit plus Henning's base pads. First thing I noticed is the the Henning complete mag is a 10mm not a 40 S&W. I then upgraded a factory mag with the Grams kit and base pad, and tried to load to to 20. When I try to clear the mag with my thumb, the bullets jam and wont move. It is like the mag is forcing a nosedive.

So my questions are

Why does Henning use 10mm instead of 40s? Measurements seem almost the same, only the base is a little bigger.

Why in the heck does it matter?

How do I fix my problem? Other than droping more $$ on complete mags.

I did switch the Grams kit and base pad with the same result.

I think Henning is off to Europe and I thought I could sneek the answer out in the mean time.

Thanks in Advance.

Matt

[J-Ho]

Some of the 40 mags are exactly the same as the 10mm, well except the part that says '10mm' on the side. There are 40 mags that have a spacer in them. It's pretty obvious which are which. Get the 10mm mags and load your 40's a little long. It seems to work well for a lot of people. If your mags have the spacer in them I can see how it would cause problems. If you're not sure or don't have anything to compare it too just look for a strip that runs down the inside front of the mag. The original follower is probably notched too. If you do have the mags with spacers I'd get 10mm mags. I think I heard someone removed their spacers and cleaned up the inside of the mag and it worked ok.

As to having nose dive when clearing the mag by had, well I'd try it in the gun. I haven't shot anything with my hand in a while, so I can't remember what causes nosedives in the hand.

[LeoHallak]

Some of the 40 mags are exactly the same as the 10mm, well except the part that says '10mm' on the side. There are 40 mags that have a spacer in them. It's pretty obvious which are which. Get the 10mm mags and load your 40's a little long. It seems to work well for a lot of people. If your mags have the spacer in them I can see how it would cause problems. If you're not sure or don't have anything to compare it too just look for a strip that runs down the inside front of the mag. The original follower is probably notched too. If you do have the mags with spacers I'd get 10mm mags. I think I heard someone removed their spacers and cleaned up the inside of the mag and it worked ok.

As to having nose dive when clearing the mag by had, well I'd try it in the gun. I haven't shot anything with my hand in a while, so I can't remember what causes nosedives in the hand.

I use 10mm mags but for friends I have knocked the spacers out of the 40cal mags so they could load longer. The main reason for 10mm mags is just that so you can load to about 1.175.

Leo

[Ga_shooter]

I tried to add the same part to my stock mags and had the same results, both stock mags have the same problem and the Henning 10mm mags work perfectly.

Ray

Edited May 27, 2008 by Ga_shooter

[RUSHARP2]

I tried to add the same part to my stock mags and had the same results, both stock mags have the same problem and the Henning 10mm mags work perfectly.

Ray

Roy,

Thanks so much for your help. Your insight has helped me figure out my problem. Perhaps you should go back to single stack.

[vous]

I use 10mm mags but for friends I have knocked the spacers out of the 40cal mags so they could load longer. The main reason for 10mm mags is just that so you can load to about 1.175.

Leo

How did you knock the spacers out and did it damage the mags at all?

[RUSHARP2]

I didnt need to knock them out, they werent there when i bought the gun. Now I am a little more confused. With the spacers out, i dont understand why they dont work. I first put the grams kit in, and they were ok, then added the base pad from Henning, and they now dont work for nothing.

I guess Henning is about to get a big order from me. Before I worry about learning from the matches, I need equipment that works consistantly.

Matt

Edited May 28, 2008 by RUSHARP2

[J-Ho]

I didnt need to knock them out, they werent there when i bought the gun. Now I am a little more confused. With the spacers out, i dont understand why they dont work. I first put the grams kit in, and they were ok, then added the base pad from Henning, and they now dont work for nothing.

I guess Henning is about to get a big order from me. Before I worry about learning from the matches, I need equipment that works consistantly.

Matt

Must be some kind of Norse magic.

The guy does know what he is doing. I've got several mags with guts I purchased from him, they all work great. This was back when he had to do some voodoo on sti followers as there weren't any for Tanfoglios yet. Long, long ago. Almost a whole year!

I would think about this. How many 21 round mags do you need RIGHT NOW? If you have one 21 rounder and a couple of 16-17 round mags, you should be good to go for a Limited stage. I've got several 21 round mags but have never used more than 1 per stage. I've got 1 reload mag with a Grams kit in it but I use stock followers in most of my reload mags.

[RUSHARP2]

It definately is some kind of magic that is for sure. I get what you are saying about the mags. I have 2 21 rounders that function, but no 15 that run consistantly. that makes it hard for the mandatory reload stages. I am just trying to figure out what I can do to get some consistancy. Once I know my equipment works, I can start worrying about other aspects of my shooting.

Matt

[J-Ho]

Do the stock red followers run? If they do, just use it with an aluminum basepad. If the stock follower doesn't run, maybe you have a bad magazine.

[RUSHARP2]

I am putting everything back to stock. I now I have 2 grams kits, with two base pads laying around. So I am thinking of just ordering a couple of 10mm factory mags and going from there.

[LeoHallak]

How did you knock the spacers out and did it damage the mags at all?

I just used a nice punch that fit the diameter of the knock out pin. and just popped it out with a few light hits.

no damage to the mags.

leo

[LeoHallak]

I am putting everything back to stock. I now I have 2 grams kits, with two base pads laying around. So I am thinking of just ordering a couple of 10mm factory mags and going from there.

Okay, I guess I am confused now after reading over the post. you have your factory 40 cal mags that came with the gun, they do not have spacers. they have red followers and plastic base pads? so you ordered a grams kit and a alum 140 or 141 base pad from Henning and after installing you shoot the gun you are getting nose dives? can you shoot any rounds before they start to nose dive? are you shooting new brass or reloads?

Leo

Edited May 28, 2008 by LeoHallak

[BritinUSA]

I think this may be related to the number of rounds and not fully sizing the cases:

With the original mags (red follower and plastic pads) how many rounds could you load that would feed reliably ?

Now how many reliable rounds can you get with the Grams followers ?

How many reliable rounds with the Grams followers and Henning's base pad ?

I suspect that the number of rounds that fit into the magazine is increasing but the reliability is going down. The red follower prevents rounds from nose-diving but does restrict magazine capacity.

If you cases are not sized the full length of the case then you may end up with nose-dives as the bottom of the case will be wider than the mouth of the case so the more rounds you stack in the magazine, the more they will point downwards.

What is your OAL ?

What recoil spring weight ?

I'm sure that we can fix the problem once we have some more details from you. I know a few people that shoot Limited .40 Tanfoglio that are 100% reliable with Henning/Grams parts.

[RUSHARP2]

I am putting everything back to stock. I now I have 2 grams kits, with two base pads laying around. So I am thinking of just ordering a couple of 10mm factory mags and going from there.

Okay, I guess I am confused now after reading over the post. you have your factory 40 cal mags that came with the gun, they do not have spacers. they have red followers and plastic base pads? so you ordered a grams kit and a alum 140 or 141 base pad from Henning and after installing you shoot the gun you are getting nose dives? can you shoot any rounds before they start to nose dive? are you shooting new brass or reloads?

Leo

First I have the Match, if it makes a difference. Reloading myself using the EGW resizing die on a 550, loading to 1.18 oal.

-I have 4 factory mags with red follower and no spacers. They ran fine with long ammo.

-I bought 2 grams kits and the alum 140 base pad. I also bought a 21+1 complete mag.

-I took 2 factory mags and upgraded them with the kit. When I clear the mag with my finger, or even with racking the slide I get jams and the round tends to nose dive to the front of the mag.

-After about 14 is when the issue occurs. It doesnt want to feed correctly. The mag tends to jam up and you almost have to take the whole mag apart to get the rounds out.

[RUSHARP2]

I think this may be related to the number of rounds and not fully sizing the cases: I am not so sure that is the issue. I use the EGW sizing die and case gage 25-35 out of every 100 pressed. But I am willing to entertain thoughts.

With the original mags (red follower and plastic pads) how many rounds could you load that would feed reliably ?

1. original mags feed fine with red follower and plastic base pads.

Now how many reliable rounds can you get with the Grams followers ? maybe 12

How many reliable rounds with the Grams followers and Henning's base pad ?

2. Maybe 14.. only loading to 15.

I suspect that the number of rounds that fit into the magazine is increasing but the reliability is going down. The red follower prevents rounds from nose-diving but does restrict magazine capacity.

If you cases are not sized the full length of the case then you may end up with nose-dives as the bottom of the case will be wider than the mouth of the case so the more rounds you stack in the magazine, the more they will point downwards. I case gage about 25-35 out of each 100 to make sure the sizing die is getting all the way down.

What is your OAL ? 1.18

What recoil spring weight ? stock spring

I'm sure that we can fix the problem once we have some more details from you. I know a few people that shoot Limited .40 Tanfoglio that are 100% reliable with Henning/Grams parts. I know the complete mag from Henning works like a dream, that is why I am so confused.

[BritinUSA]

-After about 14 is when the issue occurs. It doesnt want to feed correctly. The mag tends to jam up and you almost have to take the whole mag apart to get the rounds out.

If the rounds are sticking like that then they are going side-by-side in the magazine which seems to indicate that the base of the magazine may be too wide or the rounds are slipping past the follower. The rounds should stagger down the magazine but it sounds like they are sitting next to each other which is why you have to dis-assemble the mags to get them apart.

The Grams followers are designed to sit at an angle (left or right I can't remember) did you by any chance straighten out the grams springs so the follower sits straight up...?

[UW Mitch]

Just one quick clarification - are they nose diving when you hand feed them out of the mag or when you're shooting the gun? Because mine nose dive when I'm hand feeding them out of the mag for the first few rounds of a mag loaded to 20, and sometimes when I chamber the first round I have to give a little wiggle, but they run in the gun when I pull the trigger.

~Mitch

Edited May 28, 2008 by UW Mitch

[J-Ho]

I think you should throw up your hands in frustration, decide to give up on the Tanfo and sell me all you gear for $200.

I have a weird question. Are you sure you put the follower in the right way? It might be able to go in backwards. That wouldn't be good. I know this sounds dumb, but when you've done dumb as much and as well as I have you start thinking that way.

[RUSHARP2]

J-Ho... you must know me or something. I did check to make sure the followers were going the right way. I may bend the springs to see if it helps. GA_shooter is a local guy that I shoot with and he had the same issues with his Limited mags. Wouldnt run with the Grams kit. A complete Henning mag runs like a dream.

I will sell you my gear for $200, if yo mean the 4 factory mags.

Matt

[UW Mitch]

An alternative solution if you can't get it running by the time he gets back from Europe is to send your parts to Henning and pay him to tune it all up. He's got the experience to get them running just right. If the mag he built works in your gun, then I'm positive he could take your parts and tune them up to run like all of his other built/tuned mags.

~Mitch

[LeoHallak]

J-Ho... you must know me or something. I did check to make sure the followers were going the right way. I may bend the springs to see if it helps. GA_shooter is a local guy that I shoot with and he had the same issues with his Limited mags. Wouldnt run with the Grams kit. A complete Henning mag runs like a dream.

I will sell you my gear for $200, if yo mean the 4 factory mags.

Matt

can you take a picture of your follower and spring so I can see the angle on them? I have 8 mags with the same setup and never had a problem.

thanks

leo

[J-Ho]

When I got my kits I ordered some and had Henning beng them, I got one unbent to try it myself. Again Norse Magic, mine didn't work so well. Did you get the spring and follower pre bent by Henning? or just the plain old spring?

[jmleenz]

When I got my kits I ordered some and had Henning beng them, I got one unbent to try it myself. Again Norse Magic, mine didn't work so well. Did you get the spring and follower pre bent by Henning? or just the plain old spring?

I had the spacer in my .40 mags too. I drilled two of the three holes and the spacer came out no prob. No damage to mag, just 3 holes now in the front of the mag. I too just bought a complete H-141 mag (10mm) from Henning but I cant even fit the thing in the gun! Henning said its either a misfitted mag release or the magwell "tabs" that stick out too far? I have not had time to mess with it but when I try to insert the mag it jambs about 1/4 the way in. Looking down the mag well there doesnt seem to be any obstructions?

Any thoughts? Anyone had these issues with the 10mm mags just fitting in the .40 magwell?

[J-Ho]

There is no difference in the outside dimensions of the 10mm and 40 mags. Some of the 40 mags are identical inside and out. I had a little burr inside the magwell of my Match. The mag would go partway in and stick like a mofo. It was a very small bit of metal didn't seem like it would cause the problem, but soon as I took it off, it worked like a charm. I would check VERY carefully.

Hold the mag release in as you insert a mag. If it goes in you know it's the mag release.