1911 Trigger Job

[TBF]

I am looking for reccomendations on angles and geometry for the ultimate trigger job.

I have used the standard 90 degree angle on the hammer with good result.

But I am sure the sear angle is more important, and can it be achieved with minimal expense?

I saw the Ed Brown tool advertised at midway, is it adjustable enough?

I have done this a few times before, but look forward to new info.

Any expert help would be appreciated.

Travis F.

[Wildman]

Travis, I've used the Powers I fixture with good results. I know you're in the NKC area, so let me know if you want to borrow mine.

Brownell's has a good articel on 2 1/2 pound 1911 triggers ( a little light for me) at :

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...x?p=0&t=1&i=349

I'll be at the Claycomom range tonight, so let me know.

[Loves2Shoot]

What do you want achieve in your "ultimate trigger job?"

I find that a 2-2.5 trigger is easy to achieve using a SV TRI Glide Setup with the SV hammer and sear and a 15-17 lb mainspring. I am no expert, but I have installed this setup in 3 pistols and they all break like glass and are very reliable. If you feel the need to go super light on the trigger pull I think the failure factor increases quite a bit and require much more tlc to maintain, that is not for me.

[TBF]

Wildman,

Very cool link. I doubt I'll make it to Clayco. tonite, lately I've had to balance my shooting

with domestic tranquility issues. If I could just get the wife to start shooting....

Travis F.

[Jeffro]

TBF,

Why ruin the fun of shooting by including a wife???? NOT a personal thing about YOUR wife, just thinking aloud!!!!!! If she agravates you at home, and you take her to the range, you loose the little sanity and tranquility you might have in your life while at the range!!!!!

Like I said, just thinking "aloud" !!!!

Jeffro

[TBF]

Jeffro,

Good point....Maybe find her anoyher hobby .

L2S,

2-2 1/2 is PLENTY light for me, about 3 lb., no creep, crisp, is what I like.

And my stuff gets very little TLC, it just gets enough attention to keep it runnin right.

Travis F.

[Loves2Shoot]

TBF,

2-3 pounds with no work if you use the SV trigger/hammer/sear. They make it too easy for you.

[danielwatters]

How did/does Jack Breskovich get a 2lb trigger with .020" engagement? I've heard about the experimental ~1lb trigger jobs he did for Randall back in the early '80s to test the durability of their stainless sears and hammers.

[Trader]

It is done mostly via the sear angles and polishing. Having the right springs set correctly also helps. I have not cut hammer hooks back in years.

[TBF]

Trader,

Could you share any tips on sear angles?

That's exactly the type of info I am looking for.

Travis F.

[Trader]

TBF:

I am not picture compatable. If you do a search here or 1911forum.com I am sure there are photos somewhere of proper sear angles. You can also try pistolsmith.com .

[ggruber]

Trader,

Could you share any tips on sear angles?

That's exactly the type of info I am looking for.

Travis F.

using a Powers Custom 1 jig, use the settings in the Brownell's article, 5 clicks for the primary angle on the sear, 20 clicks for the secondary angle. use brown to black to white stones. don't settle for anything less than a mirror finish. go SLOW. trying to speed up the polish by shoe shining the stone over the sear will almost always cause a deformation in the sear face, which is a sure road to a major creepy trigger.

there is one important thing the Brownell's article left out regarding light trigger pulls (my dictionary says anything under 3 pounds).

the main problem encountered with light trigger setups is hammer follow. if the sear is setup correctly and the hammer hooks are not cut lower than 0.018-0.019 than the cause of the follow is a too heavy trigger.

i have done considerable experimentation (and spent an outrageous some of money) on this and have found the following:

1. a 100-105 grain trigger is good for trigger pulls down to 2 3/4lb.

2. for every 20 grain drop in trigger weight you can reduce the pull by 1/2 lb.

i have an 80 grain trigger in my 45 now that will let me go down to 2 1/4 lb.

you can also take an alternate route to 2 lb.

the Brownell article gives you a very radical angle on your sear (very obtuse , i.e. greater than 90 degrees).

by working with a more traditional sear setup (13 clicks up for primary, form secondary by stoning sear on stone with a 0.020 gauge under rear of sear. this gives you more 'capture' on sear nose under the hammer hooks, preventing hammer follow from bothering you.

the only drawback to this setup is the break is not glass, but at 2 pounds, i defy anyone to say how the trigger breaks.

regards,

gary

[benos]

The Great One and I were fortunate enough to be trained by the god-like Jack B. He never used jigs because the tolerances on every gun and its corresponding trigger parts are different. Often, to get that perfect 16 oz. trigger job with .020" hooks, you have to work the sear "at an angle" on the stone to get the sear to exactly mate to the hammer hooks. The theory - the sear angle must be set so as the sear moves out across the hammer hooks the hammer should neither cock nor de-cock. (This is in complete contrast to the typical gunsmith's methods that have been used since the early days of the 1911.) When I worked for SVI, I worked with Sandy to redesign his sear face so it does just that. And I know the EGW sear is pretty close to that as well, as George does a lot of Doug Koenigs work, and Doug is one of the few who knows how to do a trigger job. (He learned from me and Robbie.)

Random thoughts:

I can't think of how to say this... Rotate the sear on the sear pin, and if the radius on the end of the sear's face matches the circumference of the circle described by the rotating sear, the angle will be very close to being perfect. I set up some sears angles on a bench grinder to accomplish this an they were very close, but still required some final hand polishing.

In the beginning, it helps to rig up a dial indicator to a bench vise so you can measure any cocking or de-cocking of the hammer as you press the trigger. Later, after a few years, you'll develop the ability to feel this, or to see it by carefully looking at the hammer as you pull the trigger. And you have to learn to brace your finger against the trigger guard so you can really control the trigger press.

A trigger set up like this does have a lot of trigger "movement," but you can't "feel it move" precisely because the hammer isn't cocking or de-cocking during the trigger pull.

A trigger set up like this is very safe and will last a very long time because its function is dependent on full "engagement." (.020" if the hooks are .020") Using SVI parts, I'd often have a trigger run perfectly for over a year at 16 oz. using this method.

If the sear is not cut so there is no cocking or de-cocking of the hammer, you will feel it as "creep."

gotta go for now...

be

[benos]

Didn't get to finish this yesterday... Once you move into the 14 to 20 oz. range it is imperative that both hammer hooks contact the sear evenly. You check this by wiping the sear nose with a BLUE Sharpie marker, (don't waste your time with any other color), reassemble your pistol, snap it a few times, and disassemble and examine the sear nose. Seldom will any sort of "jig-cut" sear face have both sides touching the hammer EVENLY. This is what I was talking about in the earlier post when I said you may have to "work the sear at an angle." This is the really tricky part of getting the perfect trigger, and you can only learn it through quite a bit of experience, and, typically, ruining a bunch of sears.

The easiest thing is to just drop in an SVI hammer, sear, trigger, and titanium spring and go shooting with a 2 lb trigger.

be

[TBF]

Thanks BE,

That is the detail I have been missing, it somehow seems obvious in hindsight.

Am I correct in assuming you do the sear angle freehand? Or supported with some kind of tooling?

Titanium spring?

How about the BE signature edition hammer and sear?

Thanks for taking the time to post on this topic !

Travis F.

[LongHair1957]

Brian,

When you say to use the SVI trigger....Do you mean specifically the "Tri-Glide" trigger???

[ErikW]

BTT

[Paul B]

I think with modern hammers and sears the life of a light trigger can be very, very long. My open guns were built by Dave Dawson and they both break at 1 3/4 lbs. Both guns have had over 100,000 rounds and the triggers still are the same and still work perfectly. My limited gun is set to 2 lbs and at 50,000 rounds it is also still the same. Good luck doing it yourself, but you can't beat the work of our best gunsmiths and it really isn't that expensive.