Flyin40 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) Thanks guys, i'm sure it's technique. Thomas, Make sure you get with a trainer on those squats. 99% of people in the gym can't do a squat with the right technique. Something that will help you when you starting out is placing plates under the back of your feet. It will help your form alot until you get used to squatting. It will also take some pressure off of your knees. You can try 5lb plates, 10lb plates or 25 lb plates. Just space them out shoulder with apart, toes turned out slightly. This will allow for a deeper squat and less pressure on the knees. Also make sure your doing enough situps and hamstring work. Muscle pulls in the back are a result on either weak hamstrings or weak abs and your back tries to make up for it and thats where you get the pull. Ab work, stiff legged deadlifts(not actually with legs locked, just slight bent) leg curls and some good mornings will keep you in good shape for some squats. Also make sure you keep that bar off your neck and spine. Let it sit on your lower part of your traps and back of your shoulders. Without being there I would still get with your trainer and work on technique on squats. Flyin Edited February 8, 2008 by Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 The plate thing under your heels is good. The only reason I didn't suggest it is because it is a temporary fix and I don't want you to depend on them. Honestly, teaching the form for a squat is something very hard to articulate. It's 100 times easier to show it. If you'd like Tom, I can try and make a video for you and email it. That might help out a bit. I disagree with doing leg curls...if you are doing squats, deadlifts, and other things of that nature, they are not needed and can even potentially be harmful. Stay away from isolating muscles. Same thing for the core...these are good enough core exercises by themselves. Just make sure you don't try and start too fast with too much weight, or being insufficient in any of these areas is likely to end you up hurting (in a bad way). I've seen more than one trainer not know his a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to squats as well. I recommend purchasing the book "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe as a good area to begin. Bottom line is - to learn the squat, and develop the strength needed to squat....squatting is the best thing you can do. The ancillary exercises can help, but you should focus 90% of your effort on developing perfect form and these issues will normally sort themselves out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 jake, a video would be great. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The reason for the plates are to change the angle of the hips during a full squat. Its common among powerlifters. Actually you can buy shoes that do that same things, add inches to your heel. If your doing full squats(not half squats which most people think are full squat) all the way to parallel then the extra inches make the difference in technique. During a full squat the back/chest wants to lean forward because of skeletal structure or lack of hip flexibility. The extra height helps keep your chest up and your back straight and puts less stress on the lower back, hips and knees. As far as technique is concerned you can have 100% perfect technique and still get hurt if other areas aren't worked on and are weak. The leg curls won't hurt you and acutally you need them to strenghten the hamstrings so the back is not over stressed. Good mornings, stiff legged deadlifts, leg curls and abs plus stretching will decrease the chance of injury dramatically. Squatting is a full body exercise that requires alot of energy to complete. Working on the other supplementary exercises are needed. Isolating muscles is not a bad thing if done for a purpose to supplementing something like a squat. Thats whats so good about free weights. This is all from powerlifters who compete at the extreme end of the weight lifting world. These guys have developed exercises and routines that keep them injury free. The main reason I brought this up is because shooters can benefit from full squats. Any stage that has low ports or requires low crouching and we tend see a few of these. Shooters can benefit alot from them. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 During a full squat the back/chest wants to lean forward because of skeletal structure or lack of hip flexibility. The extra height helps keep your chest up and your back straight and puts less stress on the lower back, hips and knees. It's mainly hamstring flexibility that limits this....and if you aren't flexible enough to be doing full squats without plates, you shouldn't be doing them at all until you are. As far as technique is concerned you can have 100% perfect technique and still get hurt if other areas aren't worked on and are weak. The leg curls won't hurt you and acutally you need them to strenghten the hamstrings so the back is not over stressed. Good mornings, stiff legged deadlifts, leg curls and abs plus stretching will decrease the chance of injury dramatically. Squatting is a full body exercise that requires alot of energy to complete. Working on the other supplementary exercises are needed. I totally disagree. A perfectly formed squat is essentially the expression of the human skeletal system under a load (as the human skeletal system was designed to work). The body was built to function as a unit....so how would it be good to train it in isolation? The fact that you physically can't isolate the hamstring or quad without the use of a machine is the best example of this and the best argument against machines. If you have perfect form in the squat (which also means that you don't workout with a weight too heavy for you to keep perfect form with), you will never hurt yourself. If a few muscles are too weak, that will be readily apparent when you try and add weight. However if your form is perfect, that also automatically means your weakest muscles are strong enough to support that weight and exercise efficiently and safely with it. FWIW, several friends of mine were champion powerlifters and I also regularly talk to some of the best strongmen in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 During a full squat the back/chest wants to lean forward because of skeletal structure or lack of hip flexibility. The extra height helps keep your chest up and your back straight and puts less stress on the lower back, hips and knees. It's mainly hamstring flexibility that limits this....and if you aren't flexible enough to be doing full squats without plates, you shouldn't be doing them at all until you are. As far as technique is concerned you can have 100% perfect technique and still get hurt if other areas aren't worked on and are weak. The leg curls won't hurt you and acutally you need them to strenghten the hamstrings so the back is not over stressed. Good mornings, stiff legged deadlifts, leg curls and abs plus stretching will decrease the chance of injury dramatically. Squatting is a full body exercise that requires alot of energy to complete. Working on the other supplementary exercises are needed. I totally disagree. A perfectly formed squat is essentially the expression of the human skeletal system under a load (as the human skeletal system was designed to work). The body was built to function as a unit....so how would it be good to train it in isolation? The fact that you physically can't isolate the hamstring or quad without the use of a machine is the best example of this and the best argument against machines. If you have perfect form in the squat (which also means that you don't workout with a weight too heavy for you to keep perfect form with), you will never hurt yourself. If a few muscles are too weak, that will be readily apparent when you try and add weight. However if your form is perfect, that also automatically means your weakest muscles are strong enough to support that weight and exercise efficiently and safely with it. FWIW, several friends of mine were champion powerlifters and I also regularly talk to some of the best strongmen in the country. I'm not going to get in a pi$$ing match here but by this last reply its obvious your way off base. You talked with them, I trained with them. Your just putting out bad info. You better tell all the top powerlifters for the last 15 yrs they are doing it all wrong and your buddies know the right way. For all the shooters, squats helps, get with a trainer, make sure your doing them right to avoid injury. Do alittle research and find out for yourself whats good and whats not. These are opinions from a couple of guys Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) Does anyone else smell testosterone??? I think any activity that gets you off the couch, out the front door, and exercising is a step in the right direction. Add some attention to what you eat and you've started on a better path. ETA: had a match yesterday, skipped the WOD...but I did do several 20 second sprints and lots of walking and taping Does that count??!?! Today was an annual meeting for a volunteer group where I had to do several 4 oz curls (wine). I'm laying off again today with the justification that I still have three days of antibiotics to take. I did do a yoga class though early this morning....how early? Well, let's just say it was early enough that I couldn't shower because water doesn't get wet until sunrise!!! Had to wait till I got home! Edited February 10, 2008 by carinab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 At 45 YO i feel better and stronger with a couple days off, sometimes 3. I had to let go of my "hit it hard daily" mentality, as I was breaking down physically. Still fat, but more patient with it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Does anyone else smell testosterone??? I think any activity that gets you off the couch, out the front door, and exercising is a step in the right direction. Add some attention to what you eat and you've started on a better path. ETA: had a match yesterday, skipped the WOD...but I did do several 20 second sprints and lots of walking and taping Does that count??!?! Today was an annual meeting for a volunteer group where I had to do several 4 oz curls (wine). I'm laying off again today with the justification that I still have three days of antibiotics to take. I did do a yoga class though early this morning....how early? Well, let's just say it was early enough that I couldn't shower because water doesn't get wet until sunrise!!! Had to wait till I got home! Its all good and your right anything to get you off the couch. This thread is great, some of these post show some real motivation to improve overall health. Especially the throwing up part Wait until another 3 or 4 yrs and see how many BE'ers finish at or near the top at Major matches. We already have a ton on here now. I really haven't been on that much since last Sept and I really noticed when I came back how some people are really buying into the information on this site. This site might just might be the reason the level of performance goes up another notch in our sport. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I wasn't aware there was a pissing match? I was just having a discussion. John...you and I have very different ways of looking at things....this isn't the first conversation like this we've had (think back to the after party from the OH Sectional a few years ago). I obviously am not going to change your mind, and you've not provided enough information for me to rethink my position. You keep doing things your way, I'll keep doing things my way, and let's shoot some Alphas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Rest day today for crossfit but I did another yoga session. It kicked my backside. Two more days of these $$%@)*!@ antibiotics. They dry me out and screw with my hydration. Maybe it was the wine yesterday too. I really feel it in the yoga room if I am not eating right. My energy level is way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I was wondering how long it would take before a religious war erupted.... Regarding the effectiveness of CrossFit.... lets just say its obvious by my movement speed at the FL Open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Conley Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 On a different note..... Didn't take the rest day today. Took one yesterday instead. Came up with my own WOD to get the blood flowing. 20 pushups 20 situps 20 box jumps 20 standing knees to elbows 15 dips Do 5x of all exercises for time. 17:38 with no breaks. I could have pushed it a little harder but I didn't feel like puking up a good lunch. It never tastes as good coming out as it did going in. Chris C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I was wondering how long it would take before a religious war erupted.... Regarding the effectiveness of CrossFit.... lets just say its obvious by my movement speed at the FL Open Jake, Like I said its all good. I just wasn't going to get into a discussion about it going back and forth. It takes away from the thread and its been a pretty good thread. The whole point from me was to avoid injury and strengthening of areas to support the squat. If you have done any amount of squatting then you know if your doing some reps with medium weight and especially heavy weight, say 3x10 and really pushing yourself to get all your reps and sets, One of the first things that happens when you get tired is you start leaning forward and you don't keep your hips under you in other words your technique starts to go and go quick. Those other areas need to be strenghted to help support you when you start getting tired. The very worst things or at least one of the worst things is to lean forward on a squat which is easy to do once you doing some sets and reps. It puts an unbelievable amount of stress on you. You do the ab work to help support your back and keep you upright. You do the good mornings so when you start getting tired your lower back can handle the added stress and keep you upright. The leg curls and stiff legged deadlifts are used to help control the weight as your going down. Find a picture of a squat, at the bottom of a squat it looks just like a leg curl. Also strong hamstings can help you stay in control when you start getting tired and when you start leaning forward you'll be able to pull yourself upright. Thats where the stretching comes into play, I know when I was training hard I spent at least an hour prior to a workout stretching out. Stretching is probably the most neglected area, I couldn't stand it and but it kept my injuries to a minimum. I have seen guys carried out on a stretcher because they didn't do things the right way. Fused disk, ruptured disk, blown out knees alot of career ending injuries. The worst part was some of these guys were just warming up and didn't even have hardly have any weight on. Squats are not like most exercises, its a whole different animal. I could think of nothing worse than someone busting their butt all winter getting ready for the shooting season and get hurt in the weight room doing squats. So back to the thread......... XRE So how do you compare your movements from last yr?? I just looked up the results and gotta say nice job I had a GM(just not any GM either) once tell me not to buy into the fitness aspect too much. They said its a big part but calling the shot and other aspects of shooting are far more important. With all the threads about Rob and Taran and them finishing so well consistently and they are not in the best of shape I was wondering your take on it. I'm guessing I'm like you and think the fitness portion is a big aspect of shooting, especially in open more so in any other division. From this thread its looks like your putting alot of effort into the fitness portion right now. Just curious what kind of difference you feel from last yr in your movements and shooting with the crossfit. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 On a different note.....Didn't take the rest day today. Took one yesterday instead. Came up with my own WOD to get the blood flowing. 20 pushups 20 situps 20 box jumps 20 standing knees to elbows 15 dips Do 5x of all exercises for time. 17:38 with no breaks. I could have pushed it a little harder but I didn't feel like puking up a good lunch. It never tastes as good coming out as it did going in. Chris C. Good Job Chris! I did a modified round of Heck as per: 50 walking lunges 20 pullups 50 box jumps 20 double unders 25 ring dips 20 knees to elbows 35lb kettle ball swings 30 situps 30 wall balls 20 med ball pushups alternating hands .5 mile run at 9 mph. I had to lay down for a bit and the final pullup round took awhile to get through, BUT FUN! 19:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 So how do you compare your movements from last yr?? Video I just looked up the results and gotta say nice job I had a GM(just not any GM either) once tell me not to buy into the fitness aspect too much. They said its a big part but calling the shot and other aspects of shooting are far more important. I think, in the largest part, they are absolutely correct. In fact, I didn't start looking at fitness until a couple of things occurred - a GM card was nailed down, and one of the best shooters in the world told me (after working with me for a day, and seeing a lot of video from my last seasons) that all of my skills were solid - I just needed to get moving. Looking at video from the past two years (links to my Nationals performances are floating around here somewhere), I'm slow on my feet - enough so that its one of the crucial differentiators in my performances vs. the guys winning in Open. So, its a good avenue to gain some advantage for me. It doesn't replace shooting skills. It does, however, augment them - if I can do the non-shooting stuff more quickly, and I have better balance and stability while shooting, that only helps. In addition, I have better stamina through the day of shooting. Those things are, I think, the primary gains that we make in being fit in this game. With all the threads about Rob and Taran and them finishing so well consistently and they are not in the best of shape I was wondering your take on it. I'm guessing I'm like you and think the fitness portion is a big aspect of shooting, especially in open more so in any other division. From this thread its looks like your putting alot of effort into the fitness portion right now. Just curious what kind of difference you feel from last yr in your movements and shooting with the crossfit. I'm sharper and quicker. That's about the best way to describe it. I take off more quickly, I stop more quickly, I transition the gun more quickly, I'm more stable in awkward positions, etc. I am putting a lot of effort in - but I'm getting lots of results back, not just shooting, but feeling better and looking better overall. Plus, I've found a new game to compete in, and one I can improve at quickly (because I was so far behind to begin with - the early part of the curve and all that....). And, hell, its a lot of fun to test myself that way. Its also added to my mental toughness quite a bit. And.... when the competition is as stiff as it is in Open, I'll take any advantage I can get... I was talking with Dave Sevigny this weekend about our respective workout routines - he works his fitness primarily to play hockey. His point was that you don't play hockey to get fit - you need to get and stay fit to play hockey. But, he said, it certainly helps the shooting game, as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 All righty. I'm jazzed about tonight. We did Nancy (5 rounds: 400m run, 15 overhead squats - 95#). The first time I did this workout, I was using a bare bar (45#), my form fell apart, and I injured my left shoulder. It took me 23 minutes to finish, and I used a PVC pipe for the overheads in the last two rounds. Tonight, I did 95# OHS for the first time - 50# heavier than the last time I did Nancy (which was early October). Time was 18:05 - not stellar, but for the first time at that weight, I'll sure take it (seems that sub-14 is a good time, and sub-13 is pretty stellar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Just did a scaled "Nate" at the rec center gym....No rings so I subbed dips and pull ups for the muscle up. No kettlebell either, I made do with a dumbbell. As many rounds as possible in 15 min: 6 pull ups (gravitron - 1/2 body weight) 3 dips (gravitron - 1/2 body weight) 4 HSPU (support at knees off roman chair 31" up) 8 25# dumbbell swings I managed 9 rounds in 15 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 That's pretty damn good, Carina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Love that cross-fit stuff. Also like 8-count body builders. Last years best was 665 straight. Actually gets my heart pumping more than a 3 mile run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I must be insane. I did 90 minutes of sweaty messy yoga then went to the gym and cranked out a 5:15 Fran - 21x, 9x, 5x @ 45# Thrusters and Pull ups (Gravitron just under 1/2 bw). Now I need a nap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I was Bonking big time on the Fran ...no assist on the pullups which is good and 95 lb thruster that towards the end, I lost all the form and depth of the squat portion. 14:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Loss of depth and form implies that 95# is still too much for you, Anders... Back off 10-20, unless you pick up a lot of strength by next time, and keep the range of motion. The form can suffer a little as you fatigue, but you still want full depth and mostly correct form (so you don't get hurt....) Speaking of form and getting hurt, I got real wobbly on those OHSs I did doing Nancy on Monday - just three of the 75 reps. Those last two reps tweaked something in my low back So, be careful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Did "Nate" today. Since I have no rings etc. we did 6 pullups, 6 dips, 4-65lb presses, 8-55lb kettleball swings. Managed 10 sets in 20 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Angie last night in 32 minutes... Sit ups were the real killer for me, but the pullups took forever, too... I did the squats in less than 2 minutes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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